Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

There's no such thing as class, it's all about how much money you have

Yeah, OK, but I don't know anyone who would say Wayne Rooney is anything but working class and he has a lot of money; conversely if JRM lost all his riches, he would remain upper middle class. There is definitely a concept of class.

DH is Polish and has before said "there's no social class in Poland". But that's not true. Through him I've had 17 years of spending a lot of time with Poles and watching a fair bit of Polish TV and films- that is no classless society.

I think most people remember their childhood and identify as that "class", no matter what they end up earning.

Let's say Sharon has grown up in a poor household, and has only ever earned minimum wage.....she suddenly wins £10 Million on the lottery.....that doesn't make her Upper Class.

She would never identify with that, or have any experience of mansions, private schools, private jets etc. & she'd have no idea how to behave at a Ball or a Royal dinner party.

Moreover, anyone really Upper Class would most likely not accept her in to their circle.

Sad, but true.

Makes me think of Susan Boyle, who, despite now being worth $40 Million, refuses to leave her family home, which is a tiny council house in Blackburn.

What I've found after living here for a long time is that people are very keen to claim working class roots even if it was generations back. My grandad was down the mines type stuff even if their parent was a solicitor or whatever.

There seems to be this vibe that people who are working class are somehow morally better than people with money? Which could explain why people cling to it even their jobs are very middle class.

I'm glad to be foreign tbh

I think working class people including myself lack a certain confidence and sense of entitlement that comes with being raised middle class. I was raised working class but have become educated and work in a blue collar job (cleaning) but also earn money as an artist/tutor. I've never felt comfortable or as if I belonged as part of the middle class, although I did think that's what I should be aspiring to. As I've got older I've come to understand that my roots are solidly working class and I'm comfortable with that and proud of it. My dad worked on the production line in a car factory and my mum was a housewife and worked part time jobs in shops and as a school dinner cook and a cleaner.

I agree that someone on £40k claiming they are working class is deluded of course

My DH is a PC and earns just over £40k - of course he is working class!

My DD is a teacher, and in a few years she will also be on £40k - is she not working class?

Strangely, I do a job that almost everyone thinks only earns me "pocket money", as it requires absolutely no qualifications and is easy peasy - guess what? It brings in £40k p/a! I'm most definitely working class!

Income is irrelevant. Look at Posh and Becks, or Rooney.

Not middle - no university degree
Not upper- no landed gentry parents.

Wealthy working class. Katie Price is another.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow interesting! I'm not sure about the university criteria though when talking about the older generation. It was rare to go to university when my parents were young - I think there would have been a lot of middle class people who didn't get a degree. I don't think you needed one in those days in the way you do now. My father for example was born into a middle class family, went into business and did quite well for himself - but he didn't go to university.

@BarbaraofSeville Not every city in the UK can be easily walked across, and even London boroughs aren't that easy to walk across as most people won't happily walk 5 or 6 miles to go to a leisure activity.

Also while every London borough has a museum even if it is just the local borough museum (which is usually shit), not every London borough has an art gallery.

I would guess there are more role confused / between classes than belong firmly in any one.

Personally I’d say I grew up WC but my dc are now growing up MC. Not wealthy MC (no private school for eg) but MC nevertheless. The shift for me was that I went to a sink school but was very bright (compared to my cohort) and got into a “posh” university.

Strangely, I do a job that almost everyone thinks only earns me "pocket money", as it requires absolutely no qualifications and is easy peasy - guess what? It brings in £40k p/a!

What is it please @SummerBlondey and where do I sign up?

My parents are middle class and I was brought up middle class. The way I live now is working class on paper I suppose, as both DP and I have fairly low paid jobs, we live in a generally working class area and don't have a middle class lifestyle e.g. no family holidays, DC have never been abroad.

I still see myself as middle class as I think it'd be a bit of an insult to my working class friends to assume their identity when our upbringings were very different. My accent screams middle class, for example. Also, even though I've managed to screw my own career up through poor choices, ill health and having kids, I know one day I stand to inherit a fairly substantial sum of money and also if I was ever really in trouble financially I know my family would help me out if I needed it. This is a significant privilege and I recognise that.

@Utterlybutterly8 it is degree or degree equivalent qualifications. So if your parents had professional qualifications that were degree level they were counted as being educated.

Why does it matter anyway ?. I've never understood the hand-up certain people have about "class". They seem to perpetuate the whole class thing for their own interests.

Going against the grain I really don’t think “class” as it is traditionally defined has anything at all to do with income. It’s a product of your origins, ancestry, what your parents did and also how you were brought up. There used to be huge snobbery about WC folk who made it big, ie “new money”.

Obsession with class is a bit odd and it shouldn’t really be relevant in the modern world, but it is a huge part of our social history as a nation and I don’t think one can pretend it just doesn’t exist.

What I find fascinating is how class can change in a generation or two - case in point my dad is from a staunch working class background but worked hard, was the first in his family to go to uni, married my middle class mum and moved to a “middle class” area. We kids are all uni educated but not top earners, and I would describe us all as “middle class”. Just interesting.

I find the whole working class/middle class thing fascinating.

I am working class, my parents had little education, moved over from N.Ireland at the height of the troubles, didn’t have a pot to piss in. Went to the local catholic schools, went to Ireland on my holidays, never ate out (2 exceptions - my communion and my brother’s communion), there was no push to higher education from my parents (not for the likes of us). Everyone we know was like us, everyone did normal jobs (my dad worked in a factory and my mum worked as a clerk in an office part-time and waitressed in the evenings). We didn’t have a car until I was 12.

I left school after my a-levels and went abroad for the first time and started working in a local office, but it wasn’t enough for me, so I kept moving jobs, did some professional qualifications part-time and then a masters. I now work in professional services in a very MC job. The people I work with everyday emphasise how w/c my background is - it is all private education, signet rings and people who speak 3 languages. My first day at my firm, they took me out for sushi and I couldn’t use chopsticks - it’s the lack of experiences that make you working class - the things you don’t know you don’t know until you have an aha moment.

My kids, I would say are growing up MC - they still go to the local catholic school, but they travel (or they did until COVID), ski, go to museums, art galleries, restaurants, do activities outside of school that they like (music and art mainly). They are worldly in a way that it took me until my 30s to be and I am able to talk to them about all the opportunities that they have in front of them for work, or living in different countries and I have the right networks to introduce them to people that might inspire them or help them in future.

So in summary as that was ridiculously long, I think you are born a class and your formative experiences solidify that class. You can acquire experiences and status through your life that may mean you are viewed by others as a certain class, but your kids are the ones that move class

Art galleries, museums etc are generally free or quite cheap, so a good choice of day out the cash strapped. My entire childhood was spent tramping from one museum, art gallery, sculpture park, country house grounds etc to the other.

Exactly. My older children got the same. My youngest gets more restaurants, foreign holidays and theatre in the mix than they did.

@Stretchandsnap

I find the whole working class/middle class thing fascinating.

I am working class, my parents had little education, moved over from N.Ireland at the height of the troubles, didn’t have a pot to piss in. Went to the local catholic schools, went to Ireland on my holidays, never ate out (2 exceptions - my communion and my brother’s communion), there was no push to higher education from my parents (not for the likes of us). Everyone we know was like us, everyone did normal jobs (my dad worked in a factory and my mum worked as a clerk in an office part-time and waitressed in the evenings). We didn’t have a car until I was 12.

I left school after my a-levels and went abroad for the first time and started working in a local office, but it wasn’t enough for me, so I kept moving jobs, did some professional qualifications part-time and then a masters. I now work in professional services in a very MC job. The people I work with everyday emphasise how w/c my background is - it is all private education, signet rings and people who speak 3 languages. My first day at my firm, they took me out for sushi and I couldn’t use chopsticks - it’s the lack of experiences that make you working class - the things you don’t know you don’t know until you have an aha moment.

My kids, I would say are growing up MC - they still go to the local catholic school, but they travel (or they did until COVID), ski, go to museums, art galleries, restaurants, do activities outside of school that they like (music and art mainly). They are worldly in a way that it took me until my 30s to be and I am able to talk to them about all the opportunities that they have in front of them for work, or living in different countries and I have the right networks to introduce them to people that might inspire them or help them in future.

So in summary as that was ridiculously long, I think you are born a class and your formative experiences solidify that class. You can acquire experiences and status through your life that may mean you are viewed by others as a certain class, but your kids are the ones that move class

I completely agree, sounds very similar to my experience.

Working class to me is people in social housing, or own small houses, people who work long hours or 2-3 jobs to make the rent/mortgage, pay the bills, children share bedrooms. Times have changed and more working class people do get their children involved in activities but I’ve always considered children who have grown up with ballet lessons, dance class, music lessons etc as middle class.

I come from a working class family. My parents had nothing, my grandparents came to England in order to get jobs and feed their children. Mum grew up in a 1 bed apartment with 9 children sharing the 1 bedroom. Dad and his 9 living siblings (several died young) would be sent to the church to beg for food. Mum pulled out of school at 14 to work to help pay bills and look after younger siblings, dad was 9 when sent to work. I grew up in a council house, first job at 11 in a cafe, all through high school worked jobs to buy my own things. We had 3 holidays that I remember, pontine and 1 butlins, didn’t get my passport until I was an adult as there was no need. University was not even a consideration, that was a middle class thing.

DH is middle class, grew up in a 5 bed semi, never worked till he left school then it was in his parents company, he had gymnastics, music, swimming lessons, went on holidays abroad 2-3 times a year, Disneyland, Disney world, all around Europe & USA.

I’m now a sahm, something my family can’t understand to them I’m lazy and not contributing to the house, no benefits, DH salary covers everything. We own our own house DCs under normal circumstances would do gymnastics, drama, swimming lessons. 2 share a room but we could easily turn it into 2 rooms if we wanted. I’d say my children are growing up middle class as with one of my siblings, who has done well financially, their DCs have never had to worry about things or miss out. My other sibling is still very much working class, don’t own own home, working 80hr weeks to make ends meet...

Being working class does not equate with being poor, uneducated or if low aspirations. My father was from.a mining family and always worked in factories. Him and his five siblings all owned their own homes and worked very hard to give their children the best opportunities. So that I went to university, the first in my family to do so. My dad left school at 14, worked in a car factory and never got promoted off the production line. He also painted oil paintings in his spare time, self taught, submitting his work every year to the RA open exhibition. He designed and built a garage and a conservatory, dabbled in stocks and shares. All of his siblings and their children did well in life. That is what working class means- people who work for a living not some feral underbelly of society!

Utterlybutterly8

How old are your parents? I’m 57. I have a degree as do all my friends. Loads of us went to university in the 80’s.

But maybe it’s not just education? It’s cultural attitude? E.g

All the stuff l said above and also:

May vote Labour ( it’s now the liberal middle class who support Labour)
Probably voted remain
Watch BBC 4 ( my favourite channel😳)
Read books
Have a general cultural appreciation of art/history/food/wine
Probably involved in the community a bit

When I was 11 we moved to, what I realise now, was a much more middle class and wealthy area. It was fascinating, people espoused attitudes my old friends and I had previously considered "stuck up" or "snobby". I was roundly mocked by a couple of classmates for my accent and where I had previously lived. All of three or four miles down the road. There were lots of curious new rules that didn't seem to apply before. I remember going round to a new friend's house for tea after school, and then the next day her telling me that her mum found me rude because I hadn't said please or thank you enough. That friend also wasn't allowed to watch Grange Hill - my favourite programme at the time so I was quite cross to miss it when I went round.

Another friend came round to ours and wasn't allowed orange squash or fizzy drinks. I was mystified.

Looking back I think one or two parents were terrified that I'd come to lead their daughters astray. Have to say though the one who wasn't allowed to watch Grange Hill whose mum thought I was impolite went totally off the rails in her teens, getting in trouble with the police and taking drugs, and becoming a bit notorious at school whereas I was quite a good girl really!

I haven’t lived in England for years and so I find discussing the English class system interesting . I like the freedom of not being part of it . I like reading books and articles about society and it seems that researchers can classify the sections of society quite clearly.

I don’t know why there are people leaving comments like “ who cares about this”
Why click on the thread if it’s not something you find interesting .

what you are seeing in the types of job people do is the effect of education for all, class NEVER dictated intelligence OR academic ability

My Grandfather started out life as a coal miner, got himself a degree and when he signed up went in as an officer, came out as a mine manager although that was blocked to him in the UK. Went on to teach Maths, rising to lecture at red brick. Dad - Civil engineer, Mum Nurse before SAHM, , kids, most now run their own business in some format but digital marketing whizz, Business and Energy Consultant. 2 teachers, 2 stress engineers in aeronautics so what the hell are we - I don't know that any of us would identify as middle class, but know we are not working class in the traditional hands on descriptions.

According to the BBC class calculator I am “established middle class”. I grew up in a very MC household but never went to university as my mother didn’t think females should have degrees. DH grew up firmly WC and was warned against marrying me as I would “get bored with him”. DH is the now one in our household who makes the money and now has a higher level of education than me.

My own income is below the tax threshold though so in MN world what does that make me?

I think this is all part of wokeness. Feeling guilty for having privilege and somehow trying to minimise it?

DD (teenager) thinks we're working class because we don't live in the most desirable of postcodes (she has a friendship group from wealth-off, parents in the 'City' type backgrounds), even though household income is well above average, we are well-educated and professional.

She doesn't have a clue (but she's not 'woke' so it's not about that with her yet).

@MaskingForIt

Class has nothing to do with income, wealth or job. There are plenty of UMCs who don’t have much money, and plenty of WC people who have loadsamoney (nouveau riche).

It takes at least a generation, probably more like two or three to change class, and that works for upward social mobility as well as downwards social mobility.

Yes, absolutely. 'Class' is about aspiration, expectation, limitation, opportunities. Income and job (even wealth) can be very temporary. 'Rags to riches and back again in 3 generations' anyone?