Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

Course there’s social class Ireland. It’s just nowhere else in the developed world is it quite so in your face as Britain.

Your job, earning power or money don't define your class at all in Britain. You could be upper class and fallen on hard times, so on benefits. You can be middle class but doing what is traditionally a lower paid role and still be middle class. You can be working class, having made a pile of money and living in a mansion but you will still be working class.

The British class system is dependant upon background, traditional aspirations and some societal and educational connections. It can be seen in the types of jobs people choose but isn't dependent upon it, so you get the "working class QC" or the "upper class but was drawn to nursing" type scenario.

Class can be changed but the change will come about over generations and will apply to your children and beyond, not yourself. Although it would be much harder to change from working class all the way to upper class as you wouldn't be able to prove past generations of forebears moving in high society for quite a long while.

@contrmary

I'd say income rather than job defines your class. I work in "middle class" roles but have never earned the national average salary, usually significantly less. Even when I was in a managerial role. So I feel "working class" even though I'm probably not, because everything is such a fucking struggle to make ends meet.

I agree that someone on £40k claiming they are working class is deluded of course.

Well a London Tube Driver earns over £40k! I’ve never thought a tube driver would be middle class!

There was an interesting discussion about this work, on the PM Programme on R4 last week. Brought out some of the nuance and implications. Might be worth finding OP.

There’s two different ways to define class - essentially by your job/education and by your parents job/education. I and most people put more emphasis on the latter. As opposed to the more literal/arguably meaningless “how much do you earn” definition which can change willlinilly throughout your life’s.

Doing a well paid middle class profession doesn’t make you working class if you grew up in poverty and have a working class accent. It will almost certainly make your kids middle class though.

Also the old definitions are seriously outdated. Only about 20% of the population now fit into the old “working class” category, so it makes little sense to divide just between WC and MC. There are half a dozen social classs in the UK now.

@ivykaty44

art galleries and the like, are usually free to visit, so why would scarping by to feed their children have to do with this?

You really have no idea do you?

The majority of places do not have an art gallery tor a museum that you can walk too.

Travel costs money.

To take a family of 4 to an art gallery from my large town (but without an art gallery) to the nearest city with an art gallery/museum would be £32

Depends who you ask really. There have been others studies where loads of people who were actually working class or lower middle class considered themselves to be middle class.

There's no such thing as class, it's all about how much money you have, and that's the same in every country. If you're rich you're rich and if you're poor you're poor. And all shades inbetween. And you can move from one to the other very easily depending on being lucky with a well paid job or lottery win, or equally not being lucky and losing your job or health.

‘Not really sure to be honest, but most middle class people aren't really that cultured.’

Education is what defines the middle class.

These are people who do degrees in English Lit, Fine Art, Music, Drama.

These are people who have National Trust membership.
These are people who read broadsheets not redtops
These are people who go on holiday to absorb the culture

Culture is the defining thing of the middle class. That and education.

Money is irrelevant, except it may stop them doing expensive cultural things.

Class identity is complicated and there is for me a difference between the economic and social aspects of it. In any case, how do you define a household like mine? DH and I would be put into totally different bands/ grades whatever definition you were working on, what are our kids?

£40k doesn't make you middle class!! I have a handful of friends in London making £40k and they are still working class, I earn more than that and still know that I'm working class. I may be able to 'fool' on a business dinner that I'm MC but I'm not. Maybe my daughter will be, but based on my family history and upbringing I'm still a working class person. A wage doesn't define the class system in the UK or you could flit between classes year after year if you have a turbulent role / industry.

Course there’s social class Ireland. It’s just nowhere else in the developed world is it quite so in your face as Britain
Undoubtedly. I'm working class pps probably assume I've a shell tracksuit with hoop earrings 😅
I worked all my life, I dress well, I speak well, I love grey and silver sparkling houses.
The most important thing is I'm human like you.

I have a degree and have worked at the BBC as a writer...I'm definitely working class.

I teach, I'm published and my children attend a private school. Both have music lessons and enjoy riding.

Any British man or woman only needs to hear me speak once to know my background and that I grew up on a housing estate in the North West.

I don't give a shit though.

I moved to Australia because I knew that in the UK, my children would always wear my class in their own manners and accent.

I'd say income rather than job defines your class.

I'm not so sure it does, I am a scientist with post graduate qualifications but my role in academia is not a well paid one.

I definitely have a middle class job now but my background is of all traditional blue collar working class skilled/semi-skilled manual work with a couple of examples of white collar lower middle class jobs in the previous two generations. But no-one had been to university before me. I'd say I'm firmly middle class now but would not ever try to hide or deny my background.

It's very different though I think, even so, from coming from a long line of fairly well off people doing solidly middle class jobs or people who had even more prominence in society.

But the people who live in the cities can walk to the art gallery for free if they want to. In my city, there's tens of thousands of people who live within a mile or so of the city centre, some rich, some poor, some WC, some MC. The museums and art galleries are free. Anyone could walk there any time they wanted to.

@ivykaty44 I have a SIL whose up bringing is similar to this e.g. mother from middle class background, father from working class background. However her father is started as a builder, became wealthy and got knighted. Anyway she is firmly middle class.

The BBC class calculator

There's a BBC class calculator? I've heard it all now.

@thepeopleversuswork

it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It's been like this for at least 50 years: since the 60s really.

I grew up in a very affluent area and almost everyone affected a faux working class accent.

It's a very difficult issue in this country because money and class are to some extent decoupled because of the emphasis on behaviour, language and culture as class markers.

It always used to be said that you could tell someone's class within seconds of them opening their mouth. That's less true nowaways but still to an extent. Unlike in the US, class here is an amalgam of factors including where you went to school, the way you talk, what leisure activities you favour, where you shop etc. You can be very wealthy but identified as "lower class" or not have a penny to your name and pass as very middle class. This is determined in the early part of your life by upbringing.

That said, class is more fluid than some people like to admit and a lot of bullshit is talked about this. I have a friend who is a successful lawyer earning well over £70k a year with her own home etc who still claims to be "working class" because her dad was a manual labourer. I don't think that washes any more when you're in your 40s. You can claim to have "working class roots" but you can't claim that the arbitrary class markers you were given as a child will stay with you forever.

I agree with this. Was about to type something similar myself but easier to quote! 😇

I am from a working class earlier , the class system is not something that I really ever speak about , it’s actually quite weird when I think about it . Other than very obvious upper classes from long standing wealthy backgrounds everyone else seems much the same to me with the usual variations of how much they earn their values etc etc 🤷🏻‍♀️

I know a few self employed tradesmen earning well over 40k who’d laugh at you referring to them as middle class btw

Area not earlier

Income is irrelevant. Look at Posh and Becks, or Rooney.

Not middle - no university degree
Not upper- no landed gentry parents.

Wealthy working class. Katie Price is another.

I actually think that not many people like to acknowledge luck , or fortune or privilege because its somehow insinuating they dont work hard. And to a degree it's true - there is an awful lot of nepotism in show business/celebrity and I think people might be more quick to criticise someone who's seen to have been given a "step up" or a head start.
Also I've noticed (and sometimes has been disputed) a lot of famous people mention they were bullied at school, had no friends, dyslexic, had an eating disorder, or struggled in some way, I wonder to make them relatable, or to show that they have somehow overcome issues and worked hard rather than have been naturally talented, and had opportunities.

You see on MN the proverbial 6 figure salary earner. Most will say it's by their sheer hard work that they achieved a well paying job, nice house etc. But I suspect many will have had the advantage of a stable upbringing, private education, the chance to go to university etc which helps with the opportunities they later have. That is not to say they dont work very hard, and put in long hours but often privilege or advantage is overlooked.
My DH grew up on a council estate, left school with barely any gcses and started his own business. He worked incredibly hard and bought his own house at 21. Even that was in part, luck because of housing prices at the time. A younger member of the family had a better education, has 2 degrees, has a far better salary, in his late twenties than DH has ever had, and yet cant afford to buy yet.

Well a London Tube Driver earns over £40k! I’ve never thought a tube driver would be middle class!

Why not? I consider myself middle class and would happily drive a Tube!

And by laugh I mean to tell to piss off 😂