Working class wannabes in the News

[Oileo]

It’s been reported in a few papers that ‘47 per cent of those in middle-class professional and managerial occupations identify as working class’ and 24 per cent of people doing middle-class jobs whose parents also did middle class jobs identified as working class too. The gist is that it’s now cool to pretend you rose to your position/ wealth on merit- rather than pretend to be posh.

It got me wondering (again!) about the class system. When do you change class?Can you easily in a generation? I had a middle-class job, yet I don’t know how I’d reply in that survey. I still personally feel a gulf between those who grew up wealth and a middle class background. Even in my 40s I have a bigger mortgage (no inheritance), my interests often don’t match (can’t play an instrument, I don’t know many ballets or plays in conversation for example, no ‘hobbies’ or skills outside education). I feel sometimes it’s obvious networking at work or in my dress (I wear hoop earrings, a number of colleagues over the years have made snide comments as a small example, but it’s more than that in presentation of yourself).

Part the reason for my fascination with class is that I don’t really fit as an immigrant. My parents were a cleaner and a security guard, but I/ they had access to a good education and the Soviet Union was a system that simply can’t be applied here. I have certainly earned here on merit money wise, but have also had better educational opportunities that many British working class. So I don’t really fit.

So
Yabu- your job defines your class
Yanbu-class is far more complex, and somebody may identify as working class if those are their roots.

"So why does university as a maker of class only work one way?"

Isn't it kind of obvious?

@funkbus

No I don’t think it is

You can change some things but it is very difficult to change every element of everything you learnt as a child. And also- why would you want to? Is that saying being middle class is some how better?
The people I work with have happy fulfilling lives and actually are quite perplexed and laugh at middle class pursuits!

Interesting that President Biden is known as "middle class Joe", and that one of his promises in his inauguration speech was to "support the middle classes, the backbone of America".

Can imagine a leader in ant of the Uk nations saying that? Sadly unlikely unless a tory.

I honestly dont get the class system.unless your in either extreme.

My dad was a Design engineer- sounds good but we didnt have a car holidays and lived in a Victorian terrace.

My Dutch friend said I'm middle class as I had a corporate job. But I got made redundant. So I guess I'm judged my dh job which is manual. However we are the most asset wealthy we have ever been due to redundancy pay off.

No one would look at our income and think we are middle class. Look at my cv and you would. Look at where we live and you wouldnt. Look at our assets and you would.

So I dont know. I dont much care either.

My exh identifies as working class, but his job and income is definitely group A upper middle class. His family are solid working class roots but he and his siblings are all professional class

I was born working class. Dad started work (albeit an office job) straight out school, mum dropped out of school and lived on benefits until she married my dad. I'm fairly certain my dad was a football hooligan in his younger years and still has a season ticket to the football. Mum comes from a big family and all her siblings are either in unskilled jobs or on benefits.

At home, my parents were always supportive, but there was never a push to better myself. Instead there was always a sense that many typical middle class things were not for the likes of us. There was no expectation that I would/should go to university.

I did go to university, got a degree, masters and PhD and now work as an academic. I do notice differences with my colleaugues who often come from academic or other 'solid' middle class backgrounds, and with my students, many of whom have been to fee-paying schools.

Nonetheless, the differences between me and my (working class) cousins are much greater. None of them have any further education. They work in low-paid jobs, live in council housing, generally can't afford to go on holiday, have completely different interests/hobbies, etc. I don't want to sound like a snob, and I admire how they have maintained much stronger family ties, but it's undeniable that our daily lives and outlook on life are very different.

I might not have the same upper/solid middle class background as some of my friends and colleagues, but when I compare myself to the rest of my family it seems completely ridiculous to claim I'm WC just because my upbringing was.

DH grew up firmly WC and was warned against marrying me as I would “get bored with him

Same. In fact, from the word go, they've been campaigning to break us up because they think I'm 'posh' and they are WC from a mining town.

I've never experienced such inverted snobbery and it's poisonous. They didn't even give me a chance based on my background! I'm a thorny subject. When they phone him, they never ask how I am.

Its the class system through and through because I've never done a thing to them.

And also- why would you want to? Is that saying being middle class is some how better?

Absolutely not - I’m commenting from the perspective of the distinctions all being a nonsense.

It interests me that for every person that says you are what you parents were and never can things change, there seems to be the same number saying that once you tick x number of boxes then your firmly WC or MC and trying to pretend otherwise is a source of offence (WC “done good” claiming WC) or derision (MC “down on luck” claiming MC)

My father, definitely a product of his time, strongly believes that you are what you are - although he carves out an exception for DH totally absurd!

I will always be working class, as my parents are and their parents were. My income as an adult doesn’t change my background.

"Interesting that President Biden is known as "middle class Joe", and that one of his promises in his inauguration speech was to "support the middle classes, the backbone of America".

Can imagine a leader in ant of the Uk nations saying that? Sadly unlikely unless a tory."

As I understand, middle class has a different meaning in the US. It seems to basically mean "not living in a caravan".

We probably appear and have some markers of middle class. Own 3 cars, drive a newish Audi, mortgaged 4 bed detached house in a desirable village, excellent schools. High earner. Our friends, mostly from school, include a Bank Manager, Graphic Designer, Teacher, Quantity Surveyor, Accountant, Manager within NHS... I notice slight differences between myself and siblings and some old friends.

We don’t feel the need to show people how well we’re doing, seems the more comfortable we’ve become the quieter we’ve got on SM.

I grew up in poverty, damp, cold house, (no central heating) parents had issues, mental health and substance abuse, would say high functioning, they both worked and bought their home but fell short of the mark parenting and if I’m being honest they couldn’t afford to have us but they did, probably why things spiralled with them, they mended their ways and are in a much better place now but they still hold themselves back and I see this in my siblings ‘oh you can’t go to University it’s too expensive’ ‘can’t do x, y, z it’s too expensive’.

Grandparents would probably say they were working class but had markers of middle, GG was MC, Nana WC, they carved a very nice life for themselves, both had good careers, own home, good long term investments. Got my Dad on a good career path. Nana was a consistent role model, she always did things properly, gave us routine and stability. Great Granddad was firmly middle class, owned a business and a string of properties, as a side note GG re-married and passed away so Granddad never saw any inheritance. Seems our family perhaps moved down but hubby and me are happy and will hopefully give our children a good start.

I've never experienced such inverted snobbery and it's poisonous

Christmas - they’ll justify it by saying it’s ‘punching up’ so they can be as unpleasant as they like and it’s still ok, as some pp have said.

Actually ive just been sat here thinking class isn’t talked about, and I’d completely forgotten about the Brexit, feminism and coronavirus boards

They are full of people having a pop at the middle classes (there are plenty of posts and threads going the other way as well)

So i stand corrected (on here at any rate)

Rufus the Brexit boards are weird about class. One poster claimed at the END of the war most Nazis got off because most of the upper classes were pro Nazi even after Hitler’s atrocities were known.
One person challenged her and several posters rushed to her defence claiming this was true though they could only come up with a handful of names.

"Christmas - they’ll justify it by saying it’s ‘punching up’ so they can be as unpleasant as they like and it’s still ok, as some pp have said."

No one is saying you can be as unpleasant as you like.

But this is why people hate the working classes. So overly sensitive and can't take a ribbing. Chill out.

*middle classes not working

So overly sensitive and can't take a ribbing

A ‘ribbing’ can cover a multitude of things. Being unpleasant to someone because they’re posh and then when they object say “where’s your sense of humour”.
Funkbus, what is an acceptable level of punching up?

@Andante57

Rufus the Brexit boards are weird about class. One poster claimed at the END of the war most Nazis got off because most of the upper classes were pro Nazi even after Hitler’s atrocities were known. One person challenged her and several posters rushed to her defence claiming this was true though they could only come up with a handful of names.

Oh i missed that...

Its a relief to be honest....that board got VERY strange for a while

Oh a ribbing would be if they took the piss out of my voice or my dress sense.

Trying to split couples up because one party is of a different class is a different kettle of fish. There are two cases on this thread of working class people trying to split their relative's relationship with a middle class person up. And in addition to my own relationship, I know of two other similar stories from my friends.

So from my (admittedly anecdotal and not at all scientific) life experience, I'd say the WC are just as hostile to accepting people from another class into their group.

I'm a classical Marxist. Neither job nor income define your class. You either own the means of production, or you do not. I do not so I am working class. Income differentials, "class categories" and the like are simply methods of dividing those who have more in common with each other than they do with capitalists.

@Andante57 I agree totally. Punching up (in this instance) is just an excuse to gang up on someone that is different to you.

Neither of my parents went to university, and I am (always have been) totally MC. But my parents were a naval officer and a paediatric nurse, so as both would now require degrees to qualify, they were MC even in the 1950s.

"Oh a ribbing would be if they took the piss out of my voice or my dress sense."

Yes, that is a ribbing, correct.

You sound very bitter. If someone doesn't like you, fuck em.

@Funkbus you replied to my situation saying that I should chill out and 'take a ribbing'.

I seem bitter? You seem like you can't follow a train of thought.

But don't be offended, just ribbing you, obvs.

But yeah, agree with your last point, fuck 'em. Exactly.