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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

For there is always light. Thread #123 is belong to President Biden

999 replies

PerkingFaintly · 20/01/2021 19:14

"For there is always light
If only we're brave enough to see it
If only we're brave enough to be it."

— Amanda Gorman, 20 Jan 2021, inauguration of President Joe R Biden

Moving on from the Trump threads, last one here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4141056-Its-officially-time-to-say-ta-ta-to-Trump-its-inauguration-day-trump-122

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37
minou123 · 24/01/2021 13:54

@NotaRealLawyer

www.cbsnews.com/news/butch-bowers-attorney-who-is-trump-impeachment-lawyer/

Butch Bowers is the lawyer.
( I posted it up a couple of pages back, but got lost in squirrel's nut trail)

Crikey, im going to have to be careful googling Butch Bowers

I got myself into a bit of a rabbit hole, until I realised I was reading about Butch Bowers from Stephen Kings book 'IT'. GrinBlush

NotaRealLawyer · 24/01/2021 13:55

@PerkingFaintly

Ah, thanks for that Nota. I thought I'd seen some mention but had lost track.

So many impeachments!Grin

Ha, yes, I'd been reading up the previous impeachment earlier. Thanks to @Lily MNHQ who took down my fake news sharpish, and saved my blushes.Grin

Butch... we might have guessed he'd have a John Wayne type name for the Doofus. Plus, no stranger to representing corrupt politicians. Introduced to Trump by Lindsay Graham.

NotaRealLawyer · 24/01/2021 13:57

Minou I wandered into the same rabbit hole....Grin

pointythings · 24/01/2021 13:58

I got myself into a bit of a rabbit hole, until I realised I was reading about Butch Bowers from Stephen Kings book 'IT'.

There might be some similarities.

minou123 · 24/01/2021 13:58

@NotaRealLawyer

Minou I wandered into the same rabbit hole....Grin
Thank god I'm not the only one Grin
Roussette · 24/01/2021 13:58

choma i watched it a few nights ago! It just made me realise how hard Woodward & Bernstein worked to crack this. No computers, mobiles, almost impossible to do.
Sheer doggedness and persistence by both of them.

Bob Woodward has brought out a book about Trump that I must read, he has some inside info, he's still an investigative journalist.

www.bobwoodward.com/

'Rage' is his second book on Trump and is just out. 'Fear' was the first one in 2018.

And Bernstein interviewed last October said he was sure that Trump would provoke a constitutional crisis and he would cross unthinkable lines and that Trump's final strategy is 'total scorched earth'
How right he was.

DGRossetti · 24/01/2021 14:11

@PerkingFaintly

Yes, I agree that Collins of Maine has a long track record of shouting that she's not going to support the orange XPUS and then supporting him.

She's reliably unreliable, and should just be ignored.

Vaguely reminiscent on the UK side of all the headbanger ERG types who blather on about not accepting a shit deal, and then meekly trooping through the lobby behind Boris to vote for aforementioned shit deal.

And then popping up all over the media subsequently telling us what a shit deal it was.

Roussette · 24/01/2021 14:13

twitter.com/NC5PhilWilliams/status/1352783708202401797

Is this not shocking?
The man in army gear with a bullet resistant vest on, a taser, and a load of zip ties in his hand, in the Chamber, released so he can go to work.
no mention of bail either.

FBI siezed more than a dozen high powered guns from his home.

Looks like Trump stacking the courts has worked in this man's favour then....

Roussette · 24/01/2021 14:18

Oh... and ... incidentally, Zip Tie Guy was there with his mother Shock

DGRossetti · 24/01/2021 14:22

@Roussette

Oh... and ... incidentally, Zip Tie Guy was there with his mother Shock
If I wanted to advise violent thugs to prepare for possible court appearances over protests, I'd say take your kids with you to lay the ground for a "How could I have planned anything violent - I took my kids along ?"

Quite an upsetting tactic. Especially when you consider how many families marched for the peoples vote in the UK.

I imagine had JRM been forced to slum it, and protest in person, he'd take his nanny.

NotaRealLawyer · 24/01/2021 14:24

@Roussette

Oh... and ... incidentally, Zip Tie Guy was there with his mother Shock
Makes a change from a quick whizz around the Garden Centre followed by a cuppa. I need to tell my son to up his game a bit. (Post lockdown natch)
NotaRealLawyer · 24/01/2021 14:26

Disclaimer: Joke. Son's a cop, before our squirrel foams at mouth.Grin

AcrossthePond55 · 24/01/2021 14:39

Doofus had 8 members on his legal team for the 1st impeachment. So far, he has 1 for this one. His previous lawyers have all apparently declined the 'honor' of defending him.

Maybe he'd "Better Call Saul".

PerkingFaintly · 24/01/2021 14:43

It's starting to crystallize for me that what I might want from future threads.

I wouldn't usually spend my days following party politics of any country, including the UK, so closely. I usually spend most of my political energy on specific issues I care about, regardless of which party is in power.

I joined these threads because of the obvious threat to the foundations of democracy the US was facing in 2016. We knew the XPUS was a populist demagogue backed by people who consider democracy a useful, temporary tool to get themselves power, but who will happily ditch it as soon as they're there. We didn't know how far he'd go. Turns out the answer was, pretty far.

I wasn't expecting XPUS to demonstrate this quite so clearly, but he's left not a smidgeon of wiggle room to deny his intentions. So in a very horrible way, he's vindicated me spending time on this.

There will always be space for a thread on whichever US government is in. There is also space for partisan threads about particular parties.

The thing that I'm most interested in, though, is the task of keeping our various democracies secure. Of ending the uncivil war. Of not giving authoritarians reign over the US, the UK or (ideally) any other country.

So for me (I'm not trying to speak for others), the raison d'être of these threads has been keeping an eye on the attempt to create an authoritarian state, and the attempt to swing the US to the far-right which is closely bound with that.

These threads have many aspects, but are (for me) essentially single topic – very much like the Westminstenders threads which have primarily been about how the government of the day handles Brexit.

If I got a choice, I think those are the sort of threads I'd like to see going forwards.

Also, I don't think any of us have expressed an interest in a simple cheerleader thread for some glorious leader, just because he's wearing our team strip rather than the other one! I haven't noticed any appetite for merely partisan threads.

I expect to disagree hugely with the new US government on many things. I always do! And the UK govt too – regardless of who's in power. Representing, as they do, a country which is more economically rightwing in general than many others, the Dems are more to the right than a UK moderate lefty like myself. So I would be utterly astonished if I found myself agreeing with them all the time.

So for me at least, I would be interested in these threads continuing around the topic of repairing and maintaining a healthy democracy.

I'm afraid that may mean giving more attention than one might like to the orange attention-thief.Grin Because bringing him to book for the ways in which attempted to overthrow democracy, or just plain ol' broke the law in ways which damage the presidency (emoluments clause, I'm looking at you), will be part of that.

For now, though, I think we're absolutely right to give attention to POTUS, President Biden of the United States, and the Vice-President, Kamala Harris, who looks like she's going to part of a collaborative team.

It's important to keep an eye on what President Biden does to repair the damage to the institutions. It's important to make sure there isn't further damage.

And sadly, it will be important to give some attention – some of the time – to the behaviour of Trumpies, particularly the behind the scenes ones.

Sorry, that's turned into not-quite-a-manifesto.Blush

I'm sure you all have your own thoughts about what you'd like to happen on future threads.

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DGRossetti · 24/01/2021 14:43

@AcrossthePond55

Doofus had 8 members on his legal team for the 1st impeachment. So far, he has 1 for this one. His previous lawyers have all apparently declined the 'honor' of defending him.

Maybe he'd "Better Call Saul".

I wonder if the risk/reward balance has shifted now ?

Whilst it would be a stunning selling point for any lawyer that appeared to successfully defend Trump (even to the extent of making it a pro bono case), the downsides or losing are quite sobering. Not only do you lose, you know Trump will make it your fault. And that might mean a binful of looney tune QAnon types baying for your blood.

I bet the fact Trump has found his Butch will have raised a sigh of relief from any public defenders that might have been in line for the job.

TheNorthWestPawsage · 24/01/2021 14:59

Collins Concernometer - where does the latest impeachment fall?

For there is always light. Thread #123 is belong to President Biden
AcrossthePond55 · 24/01/2021 15:28

Whilst it would be a stunning selling point for any lawyer that appeared to successfully defend Trump (even to the extent of making it a pro bono case), the downsides or losing are quite sobering. Not only do you lose, you know Trump will make it your fault. And that might mean a binful of looney tune QAnon types baying for your blood.

@DGRossetti

I think the risk/reward balance has shifted. It's akin to the 'dream team' on the OJ trial. Most of the members ended up shilling their own cut-price legal offices, a 'pre-paid' legal service, and a myriad of other 'shystering' businesses. Plus appearances on some dubious chat shows. They certainly didn't end up as 'shining stars' of the legal profession nor as legal commentators for a major network as I think they believed they would. Even the celebrated F Lee Bailey's reputation took a hit. I think many reputable (and some not-so-reputable) lawyers just don't want to 'get up with Doofus' fleas' no matter what they think they may gain from a non-conviction.

I'm sure there will be others who join Doofus' personal dream team. There always are. But they'd better get the money up front since (I assume) the DoJ won't be footing the bill. And they'd better review their career plans.

Do I think he'll be convicted? Not really. Do I think they need to have the trial to get it all out in the open? Absolutely!!!

DGRossetti · 24/01/2021 15:34

Do I think he'll be convicted?

Conviction is not necessarily the aim of the Republicans. Just removing the prospect of "Trump 2024" is enough.

I don't know the minutia of US party politics, but if it become possible to somehow prevent Trump standing as a Republican then it might be considered "job done" and no need for conviction. In the UK withdrawing the whip would have that effect. But we wouldn't have (except perhaps in mayoral elections) such a situation. And Ken Livingstone showed that the whip is sometimes immaterial when it comes to getting elected. (Curious how that has quietly been forgotten ... London, of course, being a country within a city within a country within a Kingdom .....)

DuncinToffee · 24/01/2021 15:51

Filling up this thread
What is Bernie thinking?

For there is always light. Thread #123 is belong to President Biden
AcrossthePond55 · 24/01/2021 16:14

@DGRossetti

Do I think he'll be convicted?

Conviction is not necessarily the aim of the Republicans. Just removing the prospect of "Trump 2024" is enough.

I don't know the minutia of US party politics, but if it become possible to somehow prevent Trump standing as a Republican then it might be considered "job done" and no need for conviction. In the UK withdrawing the whip would have that effect. But we wouldn't have (except perhaps in mayoral elections) such a situation. And Ken Livingstone showed that the whip is sometimes immaterial when it comes to getting elected. (Curious how that has quietly been forgotten ... London, of course, being a country within a city within a country within a Kingdom .....)

In order to legally bar him from office, he must first be convicted.

Would just the 'taint' of information presented during the trial be enough for the GOP to never support him running as a Republican? Who the heck knows. After the last 4 years and some of the shit the GOP has backed him on nothing would surprise me. Including a Doofus 2024 GOP run.

Thing is anyone can run as an anything. A candidate doesn't have to belong to a party to set themselves up as a candidate for that party. Bernie's technically an Independent, but ran for the Democratic nomination. And he would have had the full support of the Dem party if he'd won the primaries. Would the same happen in 2024 for Doofus if he should choose to run as a Repug and win the primaries? Wouldn't surprise me.

No, the only way to guarantee he never runs again is to convict then vote to bar. Article 14 is a possibility but the legal grounds around whether or not the person actually has to be convicted of the crimes to be 'Article 14ed' are a bit muddy. AND an Article 14 ban can be lifted by a 2/3 vote in both houses of Congress.

Conviction, and even imprisonment, for his financial crimes are not a bar to running for office. You can technically be sitting on death row and run as long as you're age 35+, natural born citizen, and resident in the US for 14+ years

ListeningQuietly · 24/01/2021 16:41

Conviction, and even imprisonment, for his financial crimes are not a bar to running for office. You can technically be sitting on death row and run as long as you're age 35+, natural born citizen, and resident in the US for 14+ years
Dead people get elected after all Grin

cyclingmad · 24/01/2021 16:59

Well well well, left wing riots so let's see if these rioters are dealt with in a similar manner, I look forward to seeing from Biden and senators denouncing this violence heavily in the media and publicly asking these rioters to stop....oh wait they didn't when the riots happened in summer. I'll not bother waiting

www.washingtonpost.com/politics/destructive-protests-by-anarchists-and-extremists-signal-divided-left-as-biden-administration-begins/2021/01/23/70f93610-5d8c-11eb-a976-bad6431e03e2_story.html

PerkingFaintly · 24/01/2021 17:03

Duncin that Johnson/Bernie one is amazing.Grin

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PerkingFaintly · 24/01/2021 17:10

In real news, Zip Tie Guy, aka Eric Munchel, is now not being released until Monday, when prosecutors will make their case about whether he's likely to be a danger to the community while awaiting trial.

twitter.com/NC5PhilWilliams/status/1352792977052196864

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