To think more people should be incentivised to downsize?

[Sprockerdilerock]

I'm sure I will be flamed but here goes.

I know so many older adults who live in family size homes long after their children have left. Would it not be better for the government to offer incentives eg no stamp duty, removal costs paid for them to downsize to free them up for those that need them more?

We do have a housing shortage and I get that we could always build more homes, but we are also heading towards a climate crisis and surely it's better to use what resources we do have more efficiently and plough less energy into creating more.

My MIL is case in point - she still lives in the home my DH and his siblings grew up and often expresses a wish to downsize but she doesn't have a lot of money to spend on things like legal costs etc.

On the housing shortage, there was an article in the Times at the weekend saying about 1.5 million EU citizens have left the UK due to covid and losing jobs, and I guess Brexit too.

So query whether we actually need all the new greenfield houses the powers that be tell us we need? Unless people from Hong Kong actually do come here when they can?

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter, But as you get older, most people struggle with the maintenance and upkeep of a large house, especially if they haven’t the funds to pay for the upkeep

@Throughhistory

I've got a number of friends who are childless. They all live in large homes because they can afford to. Should they leave their homes, or is it just older people that should be incentivised to move out? Do you have to be of a certain age before others resent you for living where you choose?

No they shouldn't. Neither should any older people. Hope that helps

People should grow a backbone and stop making excuses for choices that are no one else's business

Well it kind of is - hogging a bigger house than you need when there is a housing shortage - but then I query whether there actually is a housing shortage.

Bluntness100

People don’t not buy bigger houses because they aren’t available, they are. They don’t buy them because they can’t bloody afford them.

If folks started downsizing the ones in rhe smaller houses would be fucked. Everyone would be after them and there would be a shortage.

This. Small/medium sized houses are needed by those WITHOUT your MIL’s 2million equity.

@Sirius99

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter, But as you get older, most people struggle with the maintenance and upkeep of a large house, especially if they haven’t the funds to pay for the upkeep

Thats not a reason to get them to move out lol Plenty of younger people might struggle with maintenance too- otherwise you'd never see a run down house in possession of a person under age 60

Thats an entirely different point anyway- are you asking them to move out because they cant handle the property or are you asking them to move out because others need housing?

I personally couldnt fix my own roof and I am young- i'd get a professional in to do it and thats what most people do

@IrmaFayLear

The problem is that what downsizers want is too expensive. Posters here have warbled about developers “meeting people’s needs” but that would be impossible.

Most downsizers who are not ancient or very infirm seem to want a bungalow or a house with a large downstairs footprint. So that’s as much land as a house. A decent-sized garden. A garage. A drive. A location where there are amenities, but not too busy. Those sort of properties are expensive - very expensive. And so they might as well stay in the family house they’re in.

Do you know it's impossible? Do you know all older people want is sprawling bungalows? Or do they get snapped up because they're single storey with outdoor space and generally within a community (estate, village, etc)? What else might people want, given a choice?

@redsquirrelfan

On the housing shortage, there was an article in the Times at the weekend saying about 1.5 million EU citizens have left the UK due to covid and losing jobs, and I guess Brexit too.

So query whether we actually need all the new greenfield houses the powers that be tell us we need? Unless people from Hong Kong actually do come here when they can?

That would be about half of how many there was before. Lots left, but I would be quite "huh" about the 1.5 million figure.

@redsquirrelfan

On the housing shortage, there was an article in the Times at the weekend saying about 1.5 million EU citizens have left the UK due to covid and losing jobs, and I guess Brexit too.

So query whether we actually need all the new greenfield houses the powers that be tell us we need? Unless people from Hong Kong actually do come here when they can?

This is another excellent point, and hopefully when local authorities allocate land they look at the effect of Covid robustly and what that's done to housing need. The govt 300,000 a year, or the formula for local authorities isn't about meeting local need.

The fact remains we're getting older and we need to address changing housing needs now, not leave it to our kids in 30 year time.

@redsquirrelfan

People should grow a backbone and stop making excuses for choices that are no one else's business

Well it kind of is - hogging a bigger house than you need when there is a housing shortage - but then I query whether there actually is a housing shortage.

It's not "hogging it". Everyone had the same chance to buy it🤷🏻

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter, there are a lot of older people that are property rich case poor, that can’t get up ladders etc to maintain their house and can’t afford to pay gardeners, tradesmen etc, if they were helped in some way either financially or physically, I wonder how many would move?

Throughhistory
I've got a number of friends who are childless. They all live in large homes because they can afford to. Should they leave their homes, or is it just older people that should be incentivised to move out? Do you have to be of a certain age before others resent you for living where you choose?

No. They should keep their massive houses. The OP’s MIL should do the same if this is what she wants.
There isn’t a shortage of huge expensive houses. There is a shortage of ‘affordable’ houses. If they all downsized it would make the problem even worse.

@redsquirrelfan

People should grow a backbone and stop making excuses for choices that are no one else's business

Well it kind of is - hogging a bigger house than you need when there is a housing shortage - but then I query whether there actually is a housing shortage.

There is empirically a housing shortage, though not in every region of the UK. As people live longer, and fewer people couple up early, or at all, or stay coupled, there is a growth in number of households as well as in population. London has many entire families living in one bed apartments or even in B&B rooms awaiting housing, and many people in professional jobs and/or middle age who in most of the world would be able to afford at least a studio but instead are stuck in undesirable house shares. It's a major issue.

@nicebreeze the thread is about incentivising people to downsize. I never said what you say I said, which you have so helpfully put in capitals in case I missed it. I must say, you sound rather angry and as if you have some kind of axe to grind.
I am free to comment on any thread I want. If you don't like the replies you are getting to your posts, there's not much I can do about it.

It's nice having space. Don't think I could go less than 2,500sq ft now. People have got used to cramped living in this country out of necessity and it stinks - the market in general (SE anyway).

@Goodbye2020Hello2021

Throughhistory I've got a number of friends who are childless. They all live in large homes because they can afford to. Should they leave their homes, or is it just older people that should be incentivised to move out? Do you have to be of a certain age before others resent you for living where you choose?

No. They should keep their massive houses. The OP’s MIL should do the same if this is what she wants.
There isn’t a shortage of huge expensive houses. There is a shortage of ‘affordable’ houses. If they all downsized it would make the problem even worse.

That's not how supply and demand works.

Imagine that right now there are 5 families, all with 2 or more children, looking for a 3-4 bed house in catchment for a well-rated state school. All are currently in 2 bed flats, or smaller houses. Right now, as on my street, many houses in that bracket are occupied by retirees, single or in couples - so there is only 1 house available. The price of that house is then going to be set high, because it will get offers at the max budget of those 4 families.

Now imagine that 4 of the retirees on my street took up offers to downsize at reduced rates. One converted their house into 2 flats and kept the ground floor, as stairs were becoming a problem, 2 moved to new smaller homes, 1 to live with family, using the sale cash to help her kids to buy a larger property and build a granny flat.

There are now 5 houses available in the area, for 4 families. Prices go down for the larger properties, as there's so much less competition.

But what about the smaller ones? Well
4 smaller flats and homes have been vacated
1 new flat has been created
Only 2 households have been created (one stays in the flat, one with family)
Again, there is less demand for smaller places in this scenario and prices go down. But even if most people still wanted their own home, you're still going to see flat prices in many of these areas.

*@redsquirrelfan

People always have excuses for why they need a 4 bed house when there are only two of them*

You don't have to have 3 plus children do you. Stop making life style choices and demanding someone else accommodates it. It's just another excuse you accuse others of making.

[quote Reedwarbler]@nicebreeze the thread is about incentivising people to downsize. I never said what you say I said, which you have so helpfully put in capitals in case I missed it. I must say, you sound rather angry and as if you have some kind of axe to grind.
I am free to comment on any thread I want. If you don't like the replies you are getting to your posts, there's not much I can do about it.[/quote]
Yes so how does your very specific personally circumstance relate to the topic? You wouldn't like to downsize - no incentive would make you want to, so you wouldn't be someone to be "incentivised". It doesn't mean it's not a good idea.

It doesn't have to be financial incentive.

OverTheRubicon

That’s really interesting! I hadn’t thought at all about the effect on house prices.
You are obviously right! Thank you for taking the time to explain it so well.

[quote Icenii]*@redsquirrelfan

People always have excuses for why they need a 4 bed house when there are only two of them*

You don't have to have 3 plus children do you. Stop making life style choices and demanding someone else accommodates it. It's just another excuse you accuse others of making.[/quote]
This is so unhelpful! People have a right to live where they like, in as large or small a property as suits their lifestyle. This should be about the range of what is available to better meet everyone's needs. The planning system should meet the need, not shape it

@Sirius99

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter, there are a lot of older people that are property rich case poor, that can’t get up ladders etc to maintain their house and can’t afford to pay gardeners, tradesmen etc, if they were helped in some way either financially or physically, I wonder how many would move?

Oh for sure, if they want to move then yes, I'm all for it.

What I am not for is a kind of subtle, moralistic pressure that they should get out of the homes they've lived in for years to make way for families.
There is no guarantee that a family of 4 is going to able to afford the maintenance either- large houses cost a lot of money to maintain. I know I couldnt have afforded a 4/5 bed property in my late 20s/early 30s. If I could have afforded it then I would have bought one but I couldnt and most people I knew at that age lived in small houses or apartments

It's a little concerning, a very contentious large 'garden' development being built in the next village to me. It was originally boasting a mix of affordable starter 2-bed homes, 3-beds and 'executive' 4/5 bedrooms houses. But it seems that most of them are big houses. Two new build 5-bed properties in my village only sold last year after being on the market for 3 years I think, at 900k each. I can't see how these others would sell? Also it isn't locals having their needs met, it's London commuters who are coming in and clogging up the roads and the trains.

magine that right now there are 5 families, all with 2 or more children, looking for a 3-4 bed house in catchment for a well-rated state school. All are currently in 2 bed flats

I'm sorry but thats not how it works either. You really think people can financially just move from a small 2 bed flat to a large 4 bedroom house in a desirable catchment area? Its not gonna happen. Where I live, that would be financially impossible for most people because property is outrageously expensive here. With mortgage companies wary at the current time and the country in recession its completely unfeasible that people could afford this, especially when people are being made redundant right and left

AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter, there are a lot of older people that are property rich case poor, that can’t get up ladders etc to maintain their house and can’t afford to pay gardeners, tradesmen etc, if they were helped in some way either financially or physically, I wonder how many would move?

Enough to create movement I suspect. Like a PP I also remember when councils were allowed to build and managing housing and offered flats, maisonettes and bungalows to older tenants. Sometimes in the same area, sometimes with the option to move out of town. People did take up the option with alacrity in sufficient numbers to free up housing.

Other countries do incentivise this kind of move, sometimes by reduced costs to downsize for retirees, sometimes by the property tax systems (our property taxes on large properties are relatively low). Our system disincentivises downsizing.

The emotional hanging on to a house is fine when you are in your 60s, mostly in the 70s but as people age they are stuck with expensive to run houses which they can't maintain. They don't provide significant employment because they can't afford it. By the time this happens the whole stress of moving is overwhelming.

Developers around here cram in lots of profitable boxy houses with small rooms because they are allowed to. The percentage of "affordable" units is meaningless when its directly linked to local prices in expensive areas and there is no requirement to provide units suitable for downsizers. However since the sale of council housing the driver in development has been profit first and not demographic planning for all ages or sensible reuse of brown sites.

I'm sorry but I simply dont believe that there are all these families with 500k to spare whose only obstacle is finding a large house to buy.

Nonsense. If you have the money you can move wherever the fck you like- we all know that. Availability isnt the issue, MONEY is the issue. So, unless you are planning to introduce a scheme whereby taxes subsidise the cost of these large expensive houses for families, it isnt going to happen. The issue is money, not availability.