Do you believe evil exists?

[MariaAngustias]

So, I am not a religious person, I am a sceptical agnostic. I never really thought about good and evil until I had the experience of meeting someone who emanated... well evil. It seems a bit embarrassing to say it but that is the only way I can describe it.

I was working for the NHS in a very run down area, a lot of patients came from a local Bail hostel and some had done some hideous things - I treated a murder and got on with him fine, felt sorry for him actually cos of the circumstances around what happened and his utter genuine remorse, had a few paedophile patients who, whilst I knew what they did was vile, did not give me the creeps at all. I had also worked in the drug service and come across people who had done some shocking things but nothing really phased me and I saw these people as human beings who had taken a bad path in life . Then.

We had a patient come to us from the hostel and he had an appointment with me. He was an old man with a stick and looked quite pathetic and harmless but he made the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end and filled me with such dread and horror. He looked at me as though he was trying to read my mind and said really creepy stuff like 'I showed children how to kill animals' and seemed to be playing with me. In the end I asked another person to come in the room with me and she said she felt it too and we both could not wait to get him out of the room. We were both so shaken and I just said 'I have met pure evil'. I still believe I did and it is the only time that has ever happened in my life.

WTF was it?

I'm not sure how you can be so certain

I don't see how anybody could possibly advocate for it being anything other than the construct of the human mind, without simultaneously introducing umpteen other irreconcilable and nonsensical layers of unnecessary complexity, that's why I'm certain.

I know this quote isn’t accurate and it’s origins are disputed, but I always think of the saying, ”The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist”

It’s interesting to me as it applies both religiously and non-religiously. There are examples of “evil” people out there where friends & family, people who in theory knew them best, were so shocked at what they’d done as they’d convinced people around them that they were normal and good.

If you believe, have faith, or not - the concept of “evils” ability to convince us it’s not true or not there is an interesting thought. Perhaps we don’t trust our instincts nearly enough.

The question is why would religion be any different it was founded, is populated and run by human beings after all?

A very valid question, Jaypreen, though complicated by the fact that so many of them claim to be divinely inspired, and that they therefore offer the "real" truth, the "correct" guidance or whatever

I do agree that blame for atrocities is widely shared, but overall I'm unimpressed by contrition expressed years afterwards - especially in situations where the wrong's been allowed to continue and the contrition used as an all too convenient smokescreen

Yes 100 percent.

I am not religious but certainly believe in bad. Call it evil.

I work with homeless and those in temporary accommodation. Many, many 'criminals'. I speak directly with prisoners and those just released. All the crimes you can think of. I usually try to not think about it too much when I'm dealing with them.

Anyone, one person I saw about two years ago sent a cold shudder through me the moment I saw him. All of my senses were telling me RUN. Get far, far away this is an evil monster. I felt shakey and

*passed the person on to a colleague. Sure his records came back as the most terrible and despicable of crimes. I saw him a month or so later when being housed, he held his 'grandchild' (apparently) in his arms.

And despite his records he was housed in a block with lots of families inc young kids. I still feel sick to my stomach about it. I'm sure he's back inside now as he was on bail anyway.

Never had such a physical reaction to a stranger.

@XDownwiththissortofthingX

I'm not sure how you can be so certain

I don't see how anybody could possibly advocate for it being anything other than the construct of the human mind, without simultaneously introducing umpteen other irreconcilable and nonsensical layers of unnecessary complexity, that's why I'm certain.

Well it could be argued that evil is a "construct" by citing certain terrible experiences, circumstances and examples that some evil people have been exposed to. Fred West, Charlie Manson, Edward Kemper, Henry Louis Wallace et al.

But then, what of those who have also been exposed to the same sort of thing and have also lived through appalling hardships, but aren't the remotest bit inclined to commit evil acts? Who have not constructed evil as a guiding principle?

I’ve met a guy in my line of work (psych)

No bad history, middle class parents, probably their biggest sin was finding his younger sibling easier to deal with

This guy... wow. WOW. No rhyme or reason to his behaviour. No mental illness. Just a fucking evil person. I think of him often, afraid that our paths will cross again. I will do everything in my power never to work with him again

@Puzzledandpissedoff

The question is why would religion be any different it was founded, is populated and run by human beings after all?

A very valid question, Jaypreen, though complicated by the fact that so many of them claim to be divinely inspired, and that they therefore offer the "real" truth, the "correct" guidance or whatever

I do agree that blame for atrocities is widely shared, but overall I'm unimpressed by contrition expressed years afterwards - especially in situations where the wrong's been allowed to continue and the contrition used as an all too convenient smokescreen

You make a very fair point. But then again contrition however late and tenuous is better than silence or denial. The Catholic church had the books of John Wycliffe and the Lollards burnt because it didn't want the Great Unwashed reading Wycliffe's translation of the Bible.

They also had Wycliffe himself burnt, albeit 40 years after he died.
That was a bit of overkill because the Catholic church had the 'Index'. A list of books that Catholics may not read. It included The 3 Musketeers doubtless because of the portrayal of Cardinal Richelieu.

Islam had the Satanic Verses and many other texts going back a long way. As far as I'm aware Salman Rushdie hasn't been apologised to.

Religions dislike opposed ideas. I would argue that applies to some more than others.

Religions dislike opposed ideas

Ain't that the truth ... sickening and depressing, but the truth nonetheless

Yes absolutely i believe that sadly evil exists. I have worked with people for years who did terrible things but theres something about a truly evil being that is different. Its very hard to explain? Its as your body suddenly and inexplicably goes into a state of high alert as in wanting to put as much distance between you and that person as possible. Thankfully i have only ever met a few that i would describeas evil. I think you only have to look at how rife evil is in the world as in greed, poverty, pestilence, pollution of our planet, drugs, people trafficking and so on. I also in believe in god

Consider the case of the two girls in Wisconsin USA in 2014, convicted of the attempted murder of another girl because she believed in a fictional horror character named Slender Man. Morgan Geyser was convicted of attempted first-degree intentional homicide.

Morgan grew up in a very ordinary, middle class American home. No abuse of any kind.

Morgan's mother recanted a story where she was watching the Disney movie Bambi with Morgan when Morgan was around 4 years old. At the very moving scene where Bambi's mother is killed by the Hunter, Morgan showed no empathy for the mother deer at all, her mother said. Instead she shouted at the screen for Bambi to run, to get away and save herself. Morgan's mother was disturbed by this and knew that Morgan was to an extent "different" to other children. Just how different, I don't suppose she had any way of knowing at that time.

So genetic predispositions are for me the most likely cause. Lots of fascinating research going in to this at present.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22393220/

recalled not recanted.

No I don’t believe in evil.

I believe people do evil things and the reasoning varies why and what drives them but I do believe these people have been damaged at some point usually childhood.

I work in forensic mh work with a number of people that have committed the most terrible cruelty and a few have at times made me feel fearful (without being hostile in anyway) what I’m picking up on is their anger or paranoia. It far more frightening than someone shouting at you

I have also had pleasant conversations with them. I know many would blend in society quite easily, not all are overly charming and not all are in anyway creepy or would set off alarm bells.

I have met people that have made me feel very uncomfortable but we pick up on so many signs that we don’t register it’s at warning against people who are predatory I think at times it also brings up something from the past that may remind us of someone or a situation where we felt fear

Yes. It's natural. There is goodness and light and there is evil

I'd be interested to know how you see the actions of Morgan Geyser OhWhyNot ?

No history of abuse, no exposure to violence or criminality of any kind as a child. A rather sedate and mundane upbringing in fact.

She did though show a distinct of human empathy from a very early age according to her mum.

I also have watched Night Stalker. It was extremely disturbing his crimes were horrific and he certainly played up to this in court of being evil personified.

Watch an interview a few years later he is fairly articulate, arrogant but that intensity wasn’t there I think if you met him and he presented in that way most of us would think he is an arrogant twat but not evil

Definitely believed in evil after I watched Dont Fuck With Cats on Netflix.Chilling.

@Jaypreen

I'd be interested to know how you see the actions of Morgan Geyser OhWhyNot ?

No history of abuse, no exposure to violence or criminality of any kind as a child. A rather sedate and mundane upbringing in fact.

She did though show a distinct of human empathy from a very early age according to her mum.

She did though show a distinct lack of human empathy from a very early age according to her mum.

Sorry, It must be getting late..

I’ve just read up a little on MG

She reported having hallucinations from the age of three

Her sense of reality went unnoticed ? What was going on there

And who’s report is it that she came from just a normal middle class home - Many parents will claim that all seemed normal but their child seemed a bit different. That child will pick up on that

Yes, I do but I'm always optimistic and try to see positives. I think the most dangerous are those who are just so charming you never sense the evil beneath.

Yes, I've met a couple of people who I thought were downright evil, as in if they had a choice between hurting someone and not hurting someone, they would simply take the choice that benefitted themelves the most without caring. Or in fact take the choice that caused the hurt, because they enjoyed watching someone else suffer.

But I tend to weigh up evidence, and observe, to see signs. One person I knew very well, knew his family (absolutely lovely), but I always had doubts about him and the way he reacted to things/behaved. I ended up in a relationship with him before he ended it very callously. It became obvious when he did so that there was something very very wrong with him (I won't go into detail but it went well beyond the normal ending of a relationship).

You would literally catch him before he had managed to compose his features and there would sometimes be this evil expression on his face. But he's behaved badly to a lot of people, not just me, and has no contact with any of them now. He can't even hold down a job and lives off his parents. But my gut instinct had always been telling me this about him, although I obviously had to find out for myself. The strangest thing is, he's very attractive and comes across as very gentle and kind, and sort of shy, so its the sheer change in him from that to being callous which isn't that hard to spot at all. But many people think he's angelic.

One of his past exes also committed suicide within 6 months of him ending it with her.

I then did a little digging and found out that his grandfather had done something really bad and was actually quite notorious and I saw a photo of the grandfather online, and there was just something chilling about the way he stared boldly into the camera.

Once when I was showing a woman round my house when I had a room for rent, I had a sudden flash of insight and I just knew she was evil. Well, she asked me for a glass of water just as she was leaving, and there was something so calculated about it, as if she was assessing me to see how easily I could be controlled. So I ushered her out as quickly as I could after giving the glass of water and told her the room had been taken by someone else.

These types of discussions remind me of ethics courses and debates. However at the end of the day, in the legal profession (both defense and prosecution) I've seen many people over the years:

• commit a very serious crime against another individual
• had pre-planned/prepared
• fully understand what they are doing
• (and subjectively) I believe they would do it again given the chance

In most cases the people came from very problematic backgrounds, but deliberately and knowingly chose to do what they did

Yes I agree many choose to do what they do why it’s very complex as humans are

There are people that have committed awful crimes due to being psychotic (far more likely to be a danger to themselves) are they evil too ?

I think the medical background of 'evil' is often underempasised. Fred west, Derrick bird and OJ simpson all had a history of serious head injuries. Even jimmy savile had a history of severe illness in infancy which perhaps affected his functioning later on. He was also the youngest of many and I think probably abused himself.

The concept of evil is flawed

@OhWhyNot

I’ve just read up a little on MG

She reported having hallucinations from the age of three

Her sense of reality went unnoticed ? What was going on there

And who’s report is it that she came from just a normal middle class home - Many parents will claim that all seemed normal but their child seemed a bit different. That child will pick up on that

And who’s report is it that she came from just a normal middle class home I saw a documentary about it a few years ago. So I'm paraphrasing her mother.

She also says here -

campaignforyouthjustice.org/voices/item/childhood-mental-illness-morgan-s-story

"She was a loving and affectionate member of our family." That Morgan's her home life was ordinary, stable and quite typical. Morgan loved animals and was always gentle and kind. She was an excellent student and her teachers said she was a positive influence in class. Creative with a good sense of humour.