To not understand the USA and immigration

[Sprockerdilerock]

Forgive me if I'm being a bit thick but I watched a documentary the other day about the Mexican border wall and it got me thinking.

The whole American ethos is meant to be about small government and freedom to make your own fortune etc. So how is it logically consistent for them to put a wall up stopping people from doing just that? Especially when you consider how new the country is - didn't a lot of Americans descend from Europeans being able to roam?

I just dont get it - it seems to be that the more conservative someone is the more anti immigration they are when logically it should be the opposite?

@user184628462

Just like England or anywhere else people can't just arrive illegally and expect residency.

The USA, where people arrived and stole the lands of Native Americans and then committed genocide?

There are no human natives to the americas

@TransplantedScouser

What I never understood was why they accept immigrants from poor countries but not from English speaking western countries without sponsorship.

I went to college and lived there for year before it dawned on me, I was probably a bit thick....

They accept immigrants from poorer countries to do low paid job but god forbid a skilled migrant comes in to take work from an educated American

Because of human decency, the well of person already has a nice life

I am not trying to be irritating MissConductUSA, and have no personal investment one way or the other in the twists and turns of the USA. It's just an amusing distraction to me. But the surely the mere consideration of an event let alone the laying down of even one tiny rule of what should happen in the event indicates it is possible And once you have ruled out the impossible... I never thought I would see the days when: South Africa abandoned Apartheid, the Berlin Wall came down , the Soviet Union broke up, Red China became less red, the Uk left the EU, the troubles would cease (even if temp) in N Ireland so many things seem impossible until they are possible.

Sorry I realise you said 'seriously considered' which is a different slant. As I say I don't care and think a huge earthquake is more likely to occur first. And one of the reasons for California's richness is surely to do with the selective admission of highly educated tech graduate immigrants who are also changing the face of the US . So how the demographic would look after an overwhelming natural event would be an interesting study. I mean would it wipe out silicon Valley or the coastal areas only? I suppose even after Covid though the rich old white people seem to be winning that one in the USA. But they will probably need even more low paid servants to administer the drugs and wipe their bums - so opportunities there.

Anyway I suppose should try to keep on topic. the reasons as I see it in answer to th OP are as so many people have pointed out: racism, racism, racism, hypocrisy and selfishness. The established citizens for the most part don't want to share, why should they?

@TransplantedScouser

What I never understood was why they accept immigrants from poor countries but not from English speaking western countries without sponsorship.

I went to college and lived there for year before it dawned on me, I was probably a bit thick....

They accept immigrants from poorer countries to do low paid job but god forbid a skilled migrant comes in to take work from an educated American

That’s not really accurate. All immigration visas to the US require a sponsor, usually the employer, and there is not a quota system or anything that favours one nationality above another. These are typically for skilled labour.

But there are also nonimmigration visas, the H type work visas that do not require a sponsor, but the employer may have to do a labour certification showing no US workers available so have to hire a foreign worker. These visas cover temporary lower skilled work like Agriculture and Hospitality, Ski/Holiday resorts, Landscaping, etc.

Workers from poorer countries typically come in on non immigrant visas, whereas workers from richer countries come in on immigrant visas.

@PlanDeRaccordement. There’s also types of family sponsorship, isn’t there- if one family member is already in the country, they can sponsor certain relatives, such as parents and siblings? Although I believe that’s been somewhat curtailed in recent years,

I’m married to an American ( met while he was living in Europe) and went through the “green card” process when he was offered a good job over here. What’s struck me since living here is how ill-informed most Americans are about the immigration process so it’s hardly surprising that misinformation abounds. Many American friends assumed that I just walked in because of my American spouse. 🤣 Eh, no, I had to apply and undergo the same background and medical checks, interview, fees and months of waiting as everyone else. It’s very similar if a Brit applies to bring over their American spouse- one of my friends did this in 2018 after 20 years of marriage and two kids. It took nine months and reams of paperwork to get her husband into Britain.

I think it’s completely fair that everyone goes through the same process regardless of their reasons for applying, but it’ll be interesting to see the Biden administration’s immigration reform proposals coming out this week. Legal immigration is certainly cumbersome at present and i hope undocumented immigrants who are so open to exploitation atm will be finally be able to apply to adjust their status ( esp. the DACA children).

@cateycloggs

So how the demographic would look after an overwhelming natural event would be an interesting study. I mean would it wipe out silicon Valley or the coastal areas only? I suppose even after Covid though the rich old white people seem to be winning that one in the USA. But they will probably need even more low paid servants to administer the drugs and wipe their bums - so opportunities there.

I’m sorry but you have a lot of biased assumptions in these comments. I also think it’s a bit racist to categorise nonwhite immigrants as only there to “administer drugs” and “wipe...bums” of “rich old white people.”

The current demographics of California show the average age is 36, so it’s actually a youthful working state, not a majority retirement or old people state.

It has also not been a white majority state since 2014 when Hispanic/Latino whites, blacks and Asians numbered 14.99 million compared to nonhispanic whites at 14.92 million. Spanish is as commonly spoken as English.

In addition, it is estimated 6.3% of California’s population consists of illegal immigrants, mostly Hispanics and Latinos who have crossed the US Mexico border and they are not even counted in the above 2014 numbers.

One third of all Asian Americans live in California and account for 5 million of the population. They are the state with the largest number of Native Americans and fifth largest for African/black Americans.

In addition, while there are “rich white people” in California, the Asian ethnicity actually has the highest median household income of $81.9k compared to nonhispanic whites at $75.1k, the lowest being black households at $44.2k. (Remember a household can be single working adult with or without children or working cohabiting couples with or without children).

@Cameleongirl
Yes there are also family sponsored visas to the US. You are absolutely correct. And a few thousand asylum visas are granted as well. My sister married an American man so I’m slightly up on US visas because it took a lot of work and reams of documents through the embassy and almost a year wait for this interview she had to pass to prove her marriage was a “genuine” relationship...before she finally could get on a plane and go live in the US with her husband. She had met him and married at university but had to come back when her student visa expired and then apply from outside the US to go as a spouse. She had mistakenly thought the process would be quick so didn’t bother contacting immigration until it was too close and they said she would be better off leaving and applying from outside the US than applying as an over-stayer and thus illegal.

Yes, we had to submit affidavits from friends saying they’d socialized with us as a couple, we appeared to be genuinely in love, etc., etc. it was bizarre! The medical examination was weird too, I went up to the embassy in London to be examined by an American doctor to ensure I didn’t have “summat nasty.” It was a real rigamarole!

I’m not suggesting any of the checks are unnecessary, btw, just that I don’t think most Americans realize how extensive they really are. Legal immigrants are closely examined ( in every way!) before they’re admitted.

@Cameleongirl
They’re not unnecessary but there are a lot of hoops to jump through. The Dr physical exam reminded me of my sister complaining about having to get a whole lot of immunisations done again because they wouldn’t accept the records she had, even when they were translated into English. I remember her saying she could have been infecting everyone while a student but now she’s a “wife” it suddenly matters?

@TransplantedScouser

What I never understood was why they accept immigrants from poor countries but not from English speaking western countries without sponsorship.

I went to college and lived there for year before it dawned on me, I was probably a bit thick....

They accept immigrants from poorer countries to do low paid job but god forbid a skilled migrant comes in to take work from an educated American

Can you expand a bit on what you mean here?

What immigrants from poorer countries are being accepted to do low paid jobs? What visas are they coming in on?

@Teandsympathy

Ameruca, land of the free confuses the he’ll out of me. My husband is a citizen by birth although was born, raised and lives here but he has to file an American tax return every year and will have to pay a hefty bill if we ever sell a home. We stupidly made our children duel citizens too.

Why will you have to pay a hefty tax bill if you sell your home? Is it a second home?

If it's your main residence then no, there won't be a tax bill to pay when you sell it.

@ZZTopGuitarSolo
Good point. The US rules are pretty easy to find
“You may be qualified to deduct up to $250,000 of a capital gain you received from the sale of your foreign home. Or, you could exclude up to $500,00 of that capital gain if you are married and you and your spouse file a joint account. This is especially true if you have lived and owned your property within two out of the five years.”
www.myexpattaxes.com/expat-tax-tips/expat-taxes-support/how-to-report-sale-of-foreign-home-for-americans-abroad/

Hi PlandeRaccordment, Firstly I thank you for taking the time to post those details of the Californian population statistics. Secondly, I apologise if I have been even apparantly racist to anyone in my post.

In my defense, I did not say and was not assuming all the putative immigrants taking such positions cleaning or caring for rich white survivors would be from non-white (to use an inadequate generalising term) backgrounds or that was all they could do. I was positing the kind of huge natural disaster were the poorest are most in direct harm's way, most die or are left homeless and jobless but who survives with the least damage? The richest minority.

I believe I did refer to high tech companies employing a high ratio of highly educated graduates from Asian and African backgrounds and that has had an influence on the state's demographics. As your statistics confirm.

In regard to what I brought up about Califonia's future, it is just me having late night flights of fancy but based on articles I have read in serious journals. I am in the Uk and have only visited the USA once, Los Angeles 20 years ago to visit an Asian British friend who had married a white American both working in tech companies. Just for some background. Yes I was being flippant but who knows what may happen next? I am glad I don't have kids or grandchildren to find out.

In my mind my reference to rich white survivors of any natural calamity in the USA is based on the facts that they have tended to have the best healthcare , diet , exercise and living facilities for all or for most of their lives. As is borne out by who survives Corvid and who does not, eg: Trump, Jonson, The Queen, Prince Phillip, Prince Charles. I think the Queen has some current vacancies.

I specify white because, despite recent success by people from more diverse backgrounds, I think it would still be the case that most of the possessors of the greatest and of the relatively high to very high fortunes would be based in what I believe Americans call 'old money'. You probably have a greater access to the statistics on that.

Did not the death and injury and homelessness statistics following Huricane Katrina in New Orleons bear that out? I know the city is itself is majority black but it was striking how most of those living in the city (below the levee) and most of those affected (and still affected) were poor African Americans. I believe the richer people ( white or otherwise ) build on the hills. So I was projecting a similar situation in California. I believe the majority or nearly all of the victims of the 1910(year?) earthquake were Chinese in origin? Because they were living in densely populated , inadequately built properties in the city centre. Again correct me if I am wrong.

I knew that California is now a majority Hispanic origin/Spanish speaking state which is one of the reasons (combined with a youthful, technolgically innovative workforce) why the possibility of it seceeding has been mooted by those who would see it as a positive thing. Not forgetting that the land was Spanish/Mexican governed until 1850. It was seperate before it (and other states) can be seperate again. Again I am not advocating for it, it is not personal to me, just an interesting hypotheses.

The median income statistics you quote show that middle class people from whatever background can do well there but the kind of rich people I had in mind would find that income laughable. Again, for clarity, not laughable to me, I have never had any income approaching half of that median figure of average in the Uk. But I do know ultra-rich people exist. I mean the private jet, private island etc. rich. To put it crudely I mean the kind of background Donald Trump would aspire to. I know that is a minority.

And of course the statistics you quoted, basically English speaking whites becoming a minority in America is what is behind the insurrectionists, I actually remembering learning about this at University 40 years ago when discussing the spread of the English Language as opposed to Spanish. They don't want to lose the privilge of being white when it is all they might have. And their guns of course.

For the sake of personal clarity this isn't anything I want or personally identify with. I am white, from just about the poorest of British backgrounds, my first jobs were cleaning toilets and hotel rooms , I was fortunate to benefit from universal education and grants when I went to university but have been benefits dependent. I have never had anything even approaching the average British income. My point being if I were not old now, that is the kind of job I could be expected to do for minimum wage. I am extremely glad to watch the inaugration of Joe Biden today and see it inclusive as he said of "All Americans".