To not understand the USA and immigration

[Sprockerdilerock]

Forgive me if I'm being a bit thick but I watched a documentary the other day about the Mexican border wall and it got me thinking.

The whole American ethos is meant to be about small government and freedom to make your own fortune etc. So how is it logically consistent for them to put a wall up stopping people from doing just that? Especially when you consider how new the country is - didn't a lot of Americans descend from Europeans being able to roam?

I just dont get it - it seems to be that the more conservative someone is the more anti immigration they are when logically it should be the opposite?

why don't you want to be a citizen.

I just don't see the need. Im irish and that's still home to me. A green card would allow us to live and work here indefinitely and not have to worry about renewing visas etc. I dont care about voting and dont intend to live here for the rest of my life

@bp300

"Immigrants typically want socialism? What are you taking about ?"

I doubt the Democrats / Labour Party would ever have come close to winning an election without immigration. I doubt know of a single person from Immigrant background who votes Conservative / Republican.

This is absolutely not true. Many, many Latin American immigrants to the US vote Republican as they believe it is the party that will stop abortion.

Immigration is a hot subject everywhere at the moment. I'm not sure that any country has a clearly successful approach. What is interesting is that border controls are relatively recent (100years or so). I do not deny that countries need controls but why do they need controls now? Inequality and the availability of transport coupled with population growth is the only answer I can find. The problem is that the way we measure success is by doing better than everyone else which means that someone has to loose. It would be healthier if we measured success by doing better than our parents and focused upon building up the weaker economies to equal our own.

@GeorgiaGirl52 I'd rather have that conversation on this thread where it started. Let me know if it's okay to reply to your message here.

I noticed your post was deleted too - I didn't report you by the way.

Isn't it funny how the British empire (with the current Queen as Head) some people went around the world as illegal immigrants explorers, taken over lands and usurping governments, then deciding stringent border control is an absolute must in their own countries, after seeing the socio-political destruction of these other countries in their wake?

I'm sure it isn't really as simple as that but it's a good simple way to look at it.

@Sprockerdilerock

Forgive me if I'm being a bit thick but I watched a documentary the other day about the Mexican border wall and it got me thinking.

The whole American ethos is meant to be about small government and freedom to make your own fortune etc. So how is it logically consistent for them to put a wall up stopping people from doing just that? Especially when you consider how new the country is - didn't a lot of Americans descend from Europeans being able to roam?

I just dont get it - it seems to be that the more conservative someone is the more anti immigration they are when logically it should be the opposite?

Americans are weird

They stick a giant lighthouse in the harbour with this at the bottom

"Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Then complqin when they turn up!

So those filthy colonist were Americans... funny I was taught they were English, Dutch, French, Spanish, and Mexican. They seemed to become Americans only after they formed a government all their own.

I'm with you on this, I once read that Paul Revere could not have said the British were coming, as most of the people he was informing would have regarded themselves as British.

Having said that, I believe there was genocide and land seizure commited by Americans after their government was formed, so they are not innocent, if you believe people are responsible for the sins of their ancestors, which I don't. (Specifically, I don't agree that any American alive today needs to apologise for what was done to Native American, and I'd say the same about the British with regard to the British Empire. Though in both cases it would be decent to have a accurate and sympathetic understanding of history.)

if you believe people are responsible for the sins of their ancestors, which I don't)

I agree, I don't either.

Specifically, I don't agree that any American alive today needs to apologise for what was done to Native American, and I'd say the same about the British with regard to the British Empire.

Queen Elizabeth 2 begs to differ. Assisted genocide in a formerly colonised illegally occupied African country is one of many. It wasn't 'long ago'. About 60 years or so ago. Not sure how many people who were directly involved are still alive but 'Queenie' is, even if not directly involved, being just the Figure Head and what not.

Though in both cases it would be decent to have a accurate and sympathetic understanding of history

Yep.

@AllTheWayFromLondonDAMN

This struck me when I watched Hamilton. How did those Americans with all their noble hopes and ideas become these Americans?!

Oh my, you do realise that Hamilton is pure fiction written by Miranda and so is more historical criticism cloaked in fantasy than historically accurate?

And it's really weird to put Mexicans in with all those European groups. Prior to colonizations, Mexico was entirely American Indigenous nations, obviously - in fact the Aztecs were a major colonizer, happy to talk about how they and many others fucked up too. There were trade routes and conflicts across what is now "the border", but they weren't really immigrants at the time discussed.

Not really, Mexico was colonised by Spain a century before other European countries colonised other parts of North America. Mexicans are not descended from Aztecs, but from European Spanish colonists. At the time America declared independence, the Spanish colony of Mexico extended into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California.

"This is absolutely not true. Many, many Latin American immigrants to the US vote Republican as they believe it is the party that will stop abortion."

The figures Ive jilust looked up pretty much said only a third voted Republican and you've picked the race of people where the figures are most in your favour. I can't really see how I'm wrong in saying that immigrants mostly vote Democrats / Labour.

Queen Elizabeth 2 begs to differ. Assisted genocide in a formerly colonised illegally occupied African country is one of many. It wasn't 'long ago'. About 60 years or so ago. Not sure how many people who were directly involved are still alive but 'Queenie' is, even if not directly involved, being just the Figure Head and what not.

What genocide was this? Love history and would really like to know.

The Biafran War (a.k.a The Nigerian Civil war).

1. Guardian.com/Buried 50 years/britain's shameful role biafran war

1. biafran.org/the-genocide/

1. consortiumnews.com/how-britains-labour-govt-facilitated-massacre-of-biafrans-in-nigeria-to-protect-its-oil-interests

1. This one's a youtube video Britain's assisted genocide in Biafra

Cuban Americans tend to vote for the most anti-Cuba party. That trumps any other priority for them.

<span class="italic">Well surely the 5 years of tax returns should be no problem. And I would expect that $2K should be offset by not having to pay US taxes anymore.</span>

Most Americans abroad don't file (I believe).  It's confusing & difficult (& not free) to file when you live abroad, even when you owe nothing.  I won't bore with details, I even wrote a blog post about how annoying the whole process is. IRS is too overwhelmed to chase the peanuts people.

I only once paid US taxes in last 30 years (for an inheritance) even though I file every year.  We don't get taxed on foreign earned income below a certain threshold, maybe it's around $100k.  <span class="italic">A LOT</span> of Americans living outside USA are rich, but most of us earn peanuts, have few assets.

It might be worth the $ value of my future time in assembling the tax returns to avoid filing if I did renounce.. but not sure, tbh.  State of CA tried to me me with a big tax bill for cashing in on a mutual fund (capital gains); as far as CA was concerned, I owed tax on that even if was a foreign national/resident.  I managed to claim DC as dependents & offset their allowances to avoid paying that bill (phew) which was easier to do precisely because I've kept up regular returns all these years.  I hadn't expected CA to pursue me, so lucky I had the documents.  

It will make sense to renounce when I intend to never set foot in USA again.

@bp300

"This is absolutely not true. Many, many Latin American immigrants to the US vote Republican as they believe it is the party that will stop abortion."

The figures Ive jilust looked up pretty much said only a third voted Republican and you've picked the race of people where the figures are most in your favour. I can't really see how I'm wrong in saying that immigrants mostly vote Democrats / Labour.

1. I picked the race that is the current one often discussed in America with regard to immigration. No one tried to build a wall on the Canadian border! (Maybe the Canadians want to, looking at the US )
2. A third is a huge proportion. I just think we can't say all immigrants are in favour of this or that because it simply isn't true. I'm an American immigrant to the UK by the way, and many others I have encountered here on immigration FB pages vote Republican at home and Tory here. Even though the Tory party has made it clear they would rather we (immigrants as a whole now) would just pack up and fuck off.

@raceless
Thank you for the links. I knew Nigeria had a civil war shortly after gaining independence from the UK but no idea as to any details. Will be reading your links.

No worries. Yes it was all very hush-hush here, especially as it was overshadowed by the news of the Vietnam war. Obvious reasons (I think) being Britain's involvement or lack of in both - one seen as good, the other bad.

I'm actually surprised to see some of the articles dated 2020. Seems it's all now resurfacing for some reason. Who knows what really happens behind closed doors.

@PlanDeRaccordement

And it's really weird to put Mexicans in with all those European groups. Prior to colonizations, Mexico was entirely American Indigenous nations, obviously - in fact the Aztecs were a major colonizer, happy to talk about how they and many others fucked up too. There were trade routes and conflicts across what is now "the border", but they weren't really immigrants at the time discussed.

Not really, Mexico was colonised by Spain a century before other European countries colonised other parts of North America. Mexicans are not descended from Aztecs, but from European Spanish colonists. At the time America declared independence, the Spanish colony of Mexico extended into Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California.

You're SO WRONG! Mexicans are for the most part the mix of indigenous groups with Spaniards. Mestizos make up about 75% of the population.

@doggygal

What difference to you would being a citizen make?

A couple of different things. Firstly, citizens can't be deported but green card holders can if they are convicted of a criminal offence.

Secondly, a citizen can live abroad for as long as they like and can always return home.

If a green card holder is going to go abroad for more than one year they have to do a lot of paperwork before they leave in order to get them back into the country afterwards. If they stay out of the country for more than two years then they lose their green card.

You're SO WRONG! Mexicans are for the most part the mix of indigenous groups with Spaniards. Mestizos make up about 75% of the population.

Don’t see how I can be wrong to say that most Mexicans are descended from Spanish colonists when you have written that too? “Mix of indigenous groups and Spanish” still equals descended from Spanish colonists. You don’t need to have a “pure” bloodline of only colonists to be descended from a colonist. You are forgetting too that the most of the Spanish colonists that arrived in Mexico were dark skinned to begin with because Spain had been colonised by North Africans for 700yrs before they united as a whole kingdom of Spain and then went to colonise the Americas.

Are illegal immigrant allowed to vote or even register to vote in American elections?

In theory, no - however that doesn't mean it never happens:

www.findlaw.com/voting/my-voting-guide/can-noncitizens-vote-in-the-united-states-.html

@PlanDeRaccordement

You're SO WRONG! Mexicans are for the most part the mix of indigenous groups with Spaniards. Mestizos make up about 75% of the population.

Don’t see how I can be wrong to say that most Mexicans are descended from Spanish colonists when you have written that too? “Mix of indigenous groups and Spanish” still equals descended from Spanish colonists. You don’t need to have a “pure” bloodline of only colonists to be descended from a colonist. You are forgetting too that the most of the Spanish colonists that arrived in Mexico were dark skinned to begin with because Spain had been colonised by North Africans for 700yrs before they united as a whole kingdom of Spain and then went to colonise the Americas.

In your original post you claimed Mexicans aren't descended from Aztecs. Which is again not true. At least the ones from central Mexico for the most part would. There were many civilizations within Mexico. My family comes from the West Coast who are the Purépechas.

If the Spaniards who "conquered" (we don't use the word colonise BTW) we're darker skinned is not here nor there.

Sadly the offspring or descendants of immigrants are often the first ones to 'pull the ladder up' shouting "I'm all right Jack".

You are right, I was generalising when I said Mexicans are not descended from Aztecs. 1% or 1.5m of today’s Mexicans, the Nahua, have Aztec ancestry. So I should have more accurately said that 99% of today’s Mexicans are not descended from the Aztecs. I was also generalising when I said Mexicans are descended from Spanish Europeans, which you and I have agreed is true of 75% or most of today’s Mexicans.

Whether the Spanish conquered or colonised, they did also traffick over 1 million of the Africans taken in the Atlantic slave trade to Mexico and other Spanish conquests/colonies. So the population obviously also has a black minority as well.

If the Spaniards who "conquered" (we don't use the word colonise BTW) we're darker skinned is not here nor there.

Agree. I only mentioned it because a surprising number of people I talk to think that all Europeans have skin as white as milk. When there is in reality a lot more diversity in skin tone.