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To not understand the USA and immigration

139 replies

Sprockerdilerock · 16/01/2021 18:39

Forgive me if I'm being a bit thick but I watched a documentary the other day about the Mexican border wall and it got me thinking.

The whole American ethos is meant to be about small government and freedom to make your own fortune etc. So how is it logically consistent for them to put a wall up stopping people from doing just that? Especially when you consider how new the country is - didn't a lot of Americans descend from Europeans being able to roam?

I just dont get it - it seems to be that the more conservative someone is the more anti immigration they are when logically it should be the opposite?

OP posts:
SnowflakeCulture · 16/01/2021 22:39

19:37user184628462

The English would have been part of that
The English elite of this country have done that and continue to do that

MisterT373 · 16/01/2021 22:43

My closest friend is from Texas of Mexican decent and told me his family never moved to the USA - rather the USA expanded into the area where his ancestors lived.They literally woke up one morning to find they were living in Texas.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/01/2021 22:45

How did those Americans with all their noble hopes and ideas become these Americans?!

Which ones specifically? It's a bit hard to generalise with a population that big, but in years spent there I've not met even one who'd deny a fair chance to anyone prepared to make some sort of contribution ... though I can think of plenty with strong views about any who isn't

And those who feel sore about Mexican immigration could well find Mexico's own policies quite interesting

CloudPop · 16/01/2021 22:46

@bp300

Conservatives want Capitalism but immigrants typically want socialism so not really a surprise you wouldn't people coming into the country with the opposite viewpoint to yourself.
Immigrants typically want socialism? What are you taking about ?
bluebird3 · 16/01/2021 22:47

American here from the Midwest. In my experience the reason people from home don't like immigration from the southern border is due to racism (although nobody thinks of them self as racist). People don't like how their cities, schools, neighbor hoods are filling up with Spanish speaking brown people. I hear a lot of 'why can't they learn English?' or 'if they would assimilate it would be fine.' They go to say that if people come in legally that's fine but they don't want anyone coming in who is not illegal.

They fear them taking up resources like school spaces and medical care. Hospitals do not turn away people so they do provide free emergency care and some other things (obstetrics etc) which the cost is covered by the hospital, who then charge more for services, so insurance premiums are higher.

More recently there is fear illegal immigrants voted in the recent election contributing to it being 'stolen' from trump.

People are also scared of people from mid eastern descent stemming from 9/11.

Nobody has issues with white immigration from Australia/Canada/uk although these are probably their actual competition for jobs.

user184628462 · 16/01/2021 22:54

@SnowflakeCulture

19:37user184628462

The English would have been part of that
The English elite of this country have done that and continue to do that

Yes. I don't recall suggesting they weren't amongst the people to whom I referred. I'm not sure what your point is.
EileenGC · 16/01/2021 22:57

I've only met one American person who DIDN'T tell me about their great-great-great-grandparent of Irish/German/Swedish descent.

My mum's new neighbours in Spain are a Brazilian couple who moved there before their baby was born, so they could have residency from birth and within 5-7 years the whole family will qualify for Spanish citizenship. They don't want to live in Spain, they want to live in the USA. Once they have their Spanish passports they will apply to move there in the hopes that they will not be so discriminated against, due to their Latin American background. If they present themselves as Spanish from Europe, people might be less prejudiced. It's a reality for the L/S American community.

BiBabbles · 16/01/2021 23:09

Someone else, Teaandsympathy mentioned taxes, not me, so not sure why you think I have a weird hangup about them. I said "tracking my bank accounts" - they literally threaten banks if they don't hand over details of people who might be US citizens (which may be illegal under GDPR, but the UK government keeps rolling over for the US) which has resulted in "US persons" not living in the US being denied financial products - like insurance, pensions. They do that even if you don't pay US tax, even if you're not even in the US tax system or don't earn anything. And no, renunciation isn't as simple as that website may make it appear and it's been well documented and discussed how they continue to track even after people renounce. They even do it to those immigrants they love who get green cards and then move on from the US - they're "US persons" too for taxes, not much else.

I said Europeans until I started to discuss Ellis and Angel Island - those were over a hundred years after the US was a nation, so not sure where you're getting me calling colonizers Americans, but yes many American colonizers viewed themselves as American well before they became a nation and no, I don't really blame 'greedy nations' for all of it because I don't think people are their government. Things backed by the state, yes those are done by the government, but the vast majority of what I'm talking about had nothing to do with the governments of the people involved. Part of the American War of Independence was Britain said 'yeah don't be beyond that bit' and those US patriots said 'fuck you, I do what I want' and entirely ignoring the laws of all the governments involved. That's still not immigration, but it's what the country was built on. The country was built on force - if that's what you think immigration is, you must not think well of us immigrants.

And it's really weird to put Mexicans in with all those European groups. Prior to colonizations, Mexico was entirely American Indigenous nations, obviously - in fact the Aztecs were a major colonizer, happy to talk about how they and many others fucked up too. There were trade routes and conflicts across what is now "the border", but they weren't really immigrants at the time discussed.

Do people really think deaths of American Indigenous people ended with the pilgrims? Seriously? Is this like when people say British colonization was a 'long time ago', ignoring that it existed in living memory and is continued through corporations? The pilgrims weren't who was at war for hundreds of years with different American Indigenous nations. Every president during my lifetime has broken treaties and the laws of the nations involved, some of which have resulted in deaths. They're still "immigrating" in to 'manage resources'. The Constitution says treaties are the law of the land, and yet, those laws keep being broken. The laws that refugees can make their claim at the border, broken. The US government seems to break whatever laws it feels like, it'll be nice when they're dropped down a few pegs and have to play by all the rules they want the rest of us to play by.

And yeah, people have strong opinions about the US because they're currently the biggest power and I tend to have the strongest opinion for groups I'm part of. Discussing that the US was not built on immigration doesn't mean I think all US citizens are evil (again, people are not their government), but that the myths about how the US was built makes no sense if you consider how the US was built and are damaging to the US's ability to accept reality and move forward together (and it kinda erases American Indigenous peoples and their role in building things - read early European writing on the forests, they were managed that way much like British forests were managed, but better because climate and more biodiversity and a focus on food technology over industrial).

I mean, if you think US was built on 'legal immigration', what do think people who are legally immigrating to the UK now - people like me - want to do? What do you think those going to the US want to do with it? Cause I can see why people would be scared if they thought legal immigration was the same as colonization - but it's not, they're different, and it's okay to recognize that and recognize the US and many other nations were built on force. It doesn't make Americans or anyone else bad, it just means they should recognize their roots are not the warming tales people tell their children and adults should work together to build better rather than a wall.

bp300 · 17/01/2021 04:42

"Immigrants typically want socialism? What are you taking about ?"

I doubt the Democrats / Labour Party would ever have come close to winning an election without immigration. I doubt know of a single person from Immigrant background who votes Conservative / Republican.

cateycloggs · 17/01/2021 05:06

Are illegal immigrant allowed to vote or even register to vote in American elections? I know sombody has mentioned illegal immigrants paying taxes but voting seems like a whole step further.

cateycloggs · 17/01/2021 05:14

I don't know if this poster is from Britain or USA but here in Uk the present Conservative government has several members with heritage from an immigrant background so they evidently voted Conservative also and quite likely their families did too. Also in America has the poster never heard of Henry Kissinger, a post war immigrant from Germany or Austria who has influenced Republican thought and policy from the 50s untill they recently stopped thinking. Oh what about Schwartzenegger (sorry for spelling), Republican Governor of California and Austrian immigrant.?

cateycloggs · 17/01/2021 05:39

Sorry @bp300, checked spelling , Arnold Schwarzenegger, former Republican Governor of California. Also what about Ayn Rand,so conservative she invented a whole new philosophy of Objectivism for other conservatives to worship. Born in Russia, immigrated in 1926. Oh and I was only quoting famous consevatives as obviously I dont know the names of 'ordinary' voters.

BritWifeinUSA · 17/01/2021 05:42

@user184628462

Just like England or anywhere else people can't just arrive illegally and expect residency.

The USA, where people arrived and stole the lands of Native Americans and then committed genocide?

Like British “explorers” did when they arrived in Australia, New Zealand, et al?
BritWifeinUSA · 17/01/2021 05:44

@cateycloggs

Are illegal immigrant allowed to vote or even register to vote in American elections? I know sombody has mentioned illegal immigrants paying taxes but voting seems like a whole step further.
No, only US citizens can vote here. Even green card holders or people on study or work visas cannot vote here.
BritWifeinUSA · 17/01/2021 05:50

@EileenGC

I've only met one American person who DIDN'T tell me about their great-great-great-grandparent of Irish/German/Swedish descent.

My mum's new neighbours in Spain are a Brazilian couple who moved there before their baby was born, so they could have residency from birth and within 5-7 years the whole family will qualify for Spanish citizenship. They don't want to live in Spain, they want to live in the USA. Once they have their Spanish passports they will apply to move there in the hopes that they will not be so discriminated against, due to their Latin American background. If they present themselves as Spanish from Europe, people might be less prejudiced. It's a reality for the L/S American community.

Good luck to them with that. Having Spanish passports will not change anything. There are a few limited paths to residency here and either you qualify or you don’t. Nothing to do with nationality but more to do with what you bring to the country or your reason for coming. The largest category of immigrants here are family members of people already here - I immigrated this way because my husband is an American. Employment immigration numbers are capped each year and reserved for people with certain skills and qualifications. You can’t just “apply” to come here like applying for a Tesco club card.
FromEden · 17/01/2021 05:52

Are illegal immigrant allowed to vote or even register to vote in American elections? I know sombody has mentioned illegal immigrants paying taxes but voting seems like a whole step further.

No, of course they cant vote. I'm a legal immigrant (visa) and I can't. Only US citizens can. When I lived in the UK I was still able to vote despite not being a citizen.

FromEden · 17/01/2021 05:57

You can’t just “apply” to come here like applying for a Tesco club card.

A lot of people don't realise this I think. We had friends immigrate here last year after winning the green card lottery. Thats pretty much the only non work related option and the odds of being successful are huge. Its actually weird to us that they decided to apply after visiting us here several years ago and got it. We never thought it would happen! Not sure if its available for Spanish citizens though.

doggygal · 17/01/2021 06:05

@FromEden will you ever be able to vote? Do you live and work in America? X

FromEden · 17/01/2021 06:16

If I get a green card and then become a citizen I can vote. I live here but can't work because my husband is the main visa holder and me and dd are dependents. He can't vote either. We are hopefully applying for green cards if our next visa renewal is approved but I can't see me ever wanting to become a US citizen.

TheOneLeggedJockey · 17/01/2021 06:31

@bp300

"Immigrants typically want socialism? What are you taking about ?"

I doubt the Democrats / Labour Party would ever have come close to winning an election without immigration. I doubt know of a single person from Immigrant background who votes Conservative / Republican.

But this has nothing to do with your earlier statement that ‘immigrants typically want socialism’.

What did you mean by that?

Why would immigrants come to a hardline capitalist country, if they were desperate for ‘socialism’?

Do you know what socialism even is?

I live in a country (colonised by the UK for what it’s worth), and our right-leaning party is way more ‘socialist’ / left wing than the Democrats or Biden could ever dream of being - never mind our left-leaning party, which is currently in power.

We have embraced certain aspects of social democracy - most progressive, successful countries have.

But believe me - we could not be further removed from the ‘socialist’ bogeymen countries that US conservatives are terrified of - Cuba, the old Soviet Union, Venezuela, et al.

I don’t understand where this paranoid insistence that the Democrats are going to turn the country into Venezuela has come from.

They are not. They have not. They will not.

doggygal · 17/01/2021 06:43

@FromEden why don't you want to be a citizen. You've actually made me realise how little I understand about the system, I've never thought about who had the right to vote and I don't understand the difference of a green card and citizenship. What difference to you would being a citizen make? X

SaskiaRembrandt · 17/01/2021 06:49

I'm befuddled to discover some people think America was founded by legal immigrants. Really? You think the original inhabitants of the land welcomed a bunch of entitled Europeans in to operate a violent land grab, and declare them declare them (the people who already lived there) members of alien foreign nations within the continental United States?

Fressia123 · 17/01/2021 07:14

I had written a massive reply!
Anyways, I'm Mexican so I can speak from our POV.

We don't have a welfare system and some people do it as they don't see another way out. My nanny's daughter did it but she came back. Her son is now a primary school teacher.

BTW ironically enough the largest group of illegal immigrants in Mexico are Americans!

Stillfunny · 17/01/2021 07:29

I am a dual Irish American citizen. I have never registered to file taxes in the US . Firstly, I was not aware I had to and then, I refuse to .

EileenGC · 17/01/2021 08:16

Good luck to them with that. Having Spanish passports will not change anything. There are a few limited paths to residency here and either you qualify or you don’t. Nothing to do with nationality but more to do with what you bring to the country or your reason for coming. The largest category of immigrants here are family members of people already here - I immigrated this way because my husband is an American. Employment immigration numbers are capped each year and reserved for people with certain skills and qualifications. You can’t just “apply” to come here like applying for a Tesco club card.

I guess they know this. They are not trying to get their Spanish passports so they can apply and get granted a visa on the spot, of course it doesn't work like that. It's the same process for everyone. If/when they arrive to the US, they believe it will be easier for their children to introduce themselves and get registered in places with a European passport rather than a S American one.

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