To think a "breathing" sex robot should be illegal

[CrotchBurn]

Apparently there is an AI sex robot that now has the feature of breathing (there's a video in the article in the link).

I don't really care how these ultra realistic sex dolls might help people for various reasons. I think in a world where men overwhelming treat women as unfeeling objects (yeah okay NAMALT), further blurring the lines between womens bodies and inanimate objects you can do what you want to is dangerous.

I think they should be illegal.

www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/sex-robot-breathes-incredible-ai-23275331

@PearlescentIridescent

I think the not in the same numbers point is highly relevant.

Also I wonder what proportion of male sex dolls are use by men vs women. It seems a very general statement. We know men use them because we are constantly informed of these wonderful new updates

I really do feel they contribute to view of women as objects and blur the boundaries of consent further. I understand why people may liken this to saying video games are bad when there's no evidence of that being true, but the difference is games are mainstream whereas these are clearly aimed at a certain and niche type of man. The question is what type of man is that? And what effect does appeasing this rhat tyoe of man's appetites perpetuate?

We do know for example that sex offenders often escalate and start off as say peeping toms. Then when that isn't enough they move up.

I hope they are able to be banned but I doubt it.

But then wouldn’t the data that matter be how many sex abusers actually own a sex doll? And then determine how much is enough to draw a correlation? I don’t have any data but I currently would say that 99% of rapists in the world don’t own a humanoid sex doll. I would probably also assume that over 90% of them have seen or been exposed to violent porn/sex. But then how many people who have seen violent porn end up rapists? And while I don’t have the data I would say that it’s probably a very finite number in comparison to the people who have watched it and never assaulted anyone.

Like people have pointed it out, sex dolls are niche market, which means very few people even own or are interested in one, like in every group it’s much more likely that the amount of good apples is much higher than the number of people who will commit a crime, so how risky are sex dolls and how many sexual offenders are they likely to produce and to which extent in comparison to porn or games like GTA V. Those are the relevant elements we would need to be able to establish genuinely how risky sex dolls are and if they genuinely lead to more or even similar amount of sexual crimes than other questionable sources.

And personally I think that while yes some fucked up men who happen to have sex dolls will likely rape others at some point, I think the risk is likely to be at worse similar and at best lower than people with access to porn, prostitutions, hentai and whatever else.

If a robot sex doll does the same for a man as using prostitutes does, then that is a hundred percent better. No one gets hurt. Human nature is complex. Who are we to judge?

The leap from using something to relieve sexual tension to strangling women is nonsensical. What the fuck does a sex toy have to do with rape and sexual offending? It's just a glorified dildo and I don't see anyone getting hysterical about female sex toys.

The hysteria here is stunning.

@Linning funnily enough I see it as the exact opposite. I have no problem with sex toys designed for pleasure, for men or women. I see dettached dildos as completely the opposite end of the spectrum to trying to create a male form. That's why I find it so sinister that some men, despite all the sex toys available for them, feel the need to create objects that look feel and sound like actual living women. To me I can't reconcile how that must not come from more of a desire to control and objectify. Like a pp said, most men would find them creepy af, so who are they aimed at?

And I don't buy the loneliness line either. These are inanimate objects, on what planet a toy to bone a replacement for company? It just goes further to demonstrate between the blurred lines between living and not that is caused by the objectification of women's bodies. Yuck

@Linning no, it's too literal to expect data. It's more absract and nebulous. It's more about drawing comparisons to the underlying reasoning about why one would have such a strong desire to have such an object. And it must be a strong desire as you can hardly go and pick one up at your local shopping centre.

I would imagine that even if you did try and percieve this argument through statistics, rapists would already be too far gone to want a sex doll, but that's obviously just speculation. What I do think is that they see the similarities.

I remember hearing on a true crime podcasts that one of the underlying reasons for necrophilia is the lack of rejection and lack of consent needed. It's not far flung to me to imagine there are similar reasonings going on behind these dolls.

It's not the dolls in isolation that concern me either. It's the dolls in the context of the society we live in and the way women are treated and percieved.

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@Linning funnily enough I see it as the exact opposite. I have no problem with sex toys designed for pleasure, for men or women. I see dettached dildos as completely the opposite end of the spectrum to trying to create a male form. That's why I find it so sinister that some men, despite all the sex toys available for them, feel the need to create objects that look feel and sound like actual living women. To me I can't reconcile how that must not come from more of a desire to control and objectify. Like a pp said, most men would find them creepy af, so who are they aimed at?

And I don't buy the loneliness line either. These are inanimate objects, on what planet a toy to bone a replacement for company? It just goes further to demonstrate between the blurred lines between living and not that is caused by the objectification of women's bodies. Yuck[/quote]
But I have seen plenty of posts about fleshlights being grim (I agree they are), I personally can’t see Mumsnet rejoicing over any sex toy targetted at men. Not that women should have to rejoice over the existence of sex toys but I do feel that no matter what outlet men chose to use, they are vilified and treated as wanna be sexual abusers whether it’s because they watch porn (support sex trafficking), use fleshlights and other sex toys (grim and reducing women to their genitalia), use sex dolls (why the need for a full woman–like body, obviously they are into rape and necrophilia).

I genuinely can’t think of one sex toys for male that women (on here) wouldn’t be outraged by and come up with a story as to why people who use them are clearly deranged. No matter how innocuous.

I don’t see we perceive toys targeted as women or hold women to the same scrutiny when it comes to sex toys and what they do to relieve themselves that doesn’t involve actual human beings.

I am the first one to say and think most men are sleazy and should only cautiously be trusted, (If at all) but I also don’t like what seems a lot sometimes like blind vilification of men in ways that I sometimes don’t think is justified (again, most men aren’t rapists and most rapists likely don’t own a sex doll or a sex toy, since most men in the world probably can’t afford that luxury) so I think calling to ban something that hasn’t scientifically proven to be linked to more assaults just because we find it grim (without coming up with sex toys we would gauge acceptable) and are sure men who like them are rapists who want to hurt and chock women is a bit much and unfair.

While there is porn and sex dolls and what have you, statistically and historically speaking our era is probably the era with the least rapes and sexual assaults, so I don’t think we are being fair in our associations between sex toys/sex releases and rape.

@Linning I uderstand what you're saying and I disagree with blind vilification of men too. I also agree that male sex toys are grim but I wouldn't demonise men for using them. Porn is a grey area to me and I ultimatelt do think the way it is currently done is harmful.

For the reasons I have already said though, I think these dolls are a different kettle of fish and I personally feel I am right to be wary if any man who would want to use them. Also the problem is of course between drawing comparisons between men and women is that we have sex comoletely differently. Men are the ones with the penises and potential to rape, men are the ones who do the vast majority if harmful sex related things. So as much as I agree with you truly that men should not be made to feel any desire they have is somehow wrong, I can see why women including us (assuming you are a woman!) find the whole thing offputting. I know my partner would cringe at both a flesh light and a sex doll too to be fair

[quote PearlescentIridescent]**@Linning* no, it's too literal to expect data. It's more absract and nebulous. It's more about drawing comparisons to the underlying reasoning about why* one would have such a strong desire to have such an object. And it must be a strong desire as you can hardly go and pick one up at your local shopping centre.

I would imagine that even if you did try and percieve this argument through statistics, rapists would already be too far gone to want a sex doll, but that's obviously just speculation. What I do think is that they see the similarities.

I remember hearing on a true crime podcasts that one of the underlying reasons for necrophilia is the lack of rejection and lack of consent needed. It's not far flung to me to imagine there are similar reasonings going on behind these dolls.

It's not the dolls in isolation that concern me either. It's the dolls in the context of the society we live in and the way women are treated and percieved.[/quote]
But like I said previously many people have kinks, many of those people are women. And so having a "rape fantasy" as deranged as it might seem isn’t actually uncommon and in fact, if I dare say it, fairly common, even for some women (not that they want to be raped but get turn on by a scenario that recreate a rape scene, to which they would of course pre-consent). People wanting to re-enact those things with dolls or consenting adults is neither here nor there.

The thing with necrophilia and rape is that it’s two acts that require lack of consent (and death in the former), so no doll can re-enact that feeling no matter how realistic, so men who want to experience the real deal will always do so, at best the dolls will delay the amount of time they act on it (which is a benefit) but I definitely don’t think they would make or break a rapist. When I got sexually abused and chocked I could see in the eyes of my abusers that they weren’t forcing me to have sex with them because they didn’t know how to ask but because they would have never been satisfied with me consenting to sex, they needed to feel almighty over me and I know, I just know that the feeling they had when they did this, they would have never had it with a doll and would have never considered a doll as a good substitute or even a good stepping stone to what they did, rapists aim for that moment when they can look at their victim eyes and see the fear and know deep down they are causing it and rejoice in that feeling, ain’t dolls providing that.

So I personally don’t think dolls will have much impact, whether on if a man acts on it or doesn’t act on it, I personally think at best it will delay things or make people enact things on dolls rather than sex workers but that ultimately rape is about power and there is zero power play with a doll.

[quote PearlescentIridescent]@Linning I uderstand what you're saying and I disagree with blind vilification of men too. I also agree that male sex toys are grim but I wouldn't demonise men for using them. Porn is a grey area to me and I ultimatelt do think the way it is currently done is harmful.

For the reasons I have already said though, I think these dolls are a different kettle of fish and I personally feel I am right to be wary if any man who would want to use them. Also the problem is of course between drawing comparisons between men and women is that we have sex comoletely differently. Men are the ones with the penises and potential to rape, men are the ones who do the vast majority if harmful sex related things. So as much as I agree with you truly that men should not be made to feel any desire they have is somehow wrong, I can see why women including us (assuming you are a woman!) find the whole thing offputting. I know my partner would cringe at both a flesh light and a sex doll too to be fair[/quote]
I agree that being wary is always a good thing because yes men are a higher risks, I disagree though that men are the one who have the potential to rape just because they have a penis, women can and do rape (and one can be raped without penis interaction), and yes men are the ones who commit the most rapes and therefore should be probably be held to the highest scrutiny and standards but many women, I’m the lesbian community amongst others, actually have had unconsentual acts done to them at the hands of other women (me included) and it’s almost never talked about because we focus so much on how dangerous men are and if a man is raped it’s mostly by other men that we forget that women can get assaulted and do get assaulted by other women and that it does look a whole lot different to an assault from a man but that it still happen and that’s why women shouldn’t be portrayed as people who can’t cause sexual harms to others because they can and do. There is almost no data on women on women sex crimes because women don’t dare talk up against men let alone the guilt of prejudicing another women by speaking up but it does happen and it’s very important (at least to me) that while we acknowledge that men statistically are more likely to be rapists than women that women have often never been seen in our society as harmful (hence why women are rarely suspected of murder and other crimes) as usually seen as weak and harmless but that they can be and that even if women rapists are less common that they do exists and that it’s not because they are less numerous that that matters less or that they are less harmful.

(I know that’s not what you were implying but I wanted to stress that because when people think of rape it’s 99% men on woman, 1% man on man, once in a blue moon the odd thought that a woman could assault a man, maybe, but almost never woman on woman and being part of a community where these types of assaults happen, more than one might imagine actually, I felt important to mention that a penis isn’t necessarily what makes rape possible).

Personally I don't see the harm in sex robots. Their is no difference between a sex robot for a man to masturbate with and a vibrator for a woman to masturbate with. For that matter, it's no different to using a bike or a car because you can't be arsed with the effort of walking somewhere.

I think the reason people are upset about "breathing" sex robots is the fear of the unknown. If a robot "breathes" it seems more alive. The question is, when does a breathing, artificially intelligent self-learning robot become something deserving of "human" rights? Can an artificial entity consent, does it have the ability to withhold consent, and if so, where is the line drawn - an AI entity that is more intelligent than a human and can feel pain at one end of the spectrum, and a tin opener at the other.

In any case, every man who is using one is a man who is not having sex with an actual woman, consensual or otherwise, which is surely a good thing!

I remember hearing on a true crime podcasts that one of the underlying reasons for necrophilia is the lack of rejection and lack of consent needed. It's not far flung to me to imagine there are similar reasonings going on behind these dolls

Well if they are into necrophilia, breathing is the last thing they want the doll to be!

I'm sorry for your experience. I've also been on the receiving end of unwanted touching from a woman (but have also been assaulted and groped and all the rest by many more men).

The reason I find rape fantasy concerning for men and not for women is because they are from two completely opposite perspectives. As I divulged on a thread on the feminism chat, I myself have tendencies toward that kind of fantasy but because it's from the (eek) victim perspective it's more about being desired and lusted after rather than being attacked, hurt or anything like that. I have no interest in recreating that in real life though. But fantasising about being the perpetrator or rape is completely different.

Perhaps it would be better to frame my argument as this - women are far more likely (not exclusively, but far more likely) to be victims of that kind of abuse and that is why I am uncomfortable with further objectifying women to the point we are literally turning them into objects.

Violent pornography desensitises and conditions men and boys to enjoy women’s suffering and humiliation. It doesn’t give them an outlet so they don’t inflict it on women and girls, it teaches them to enjoy it and to seek out more and more female pain and degradation. These dolls will condition men in the same way.

And the ‘state funded professional sex workers’ providing services to disabled men - who wants that job? Who wants their daughter to do that job? Why is renting out women’s bodies preferable to men not getting sex? Again, female suffering is a price paid for male orgasms. Surely better for men to be deprived of sex than women subjected to this?

@JaneJeffer

I've never seen so many weirdos on one thread before 🤮

Seconded.

Thirded.

Violent pornography desensitises and conditions men and boys to enjoy women’s suffering and humiliation. It doesn’t give them an outlet so they don’t inflict it on women and girls, it teaches them to enjoy it and to seek out more and more female pain and degradation. These dolls will condition men in the same way.
Why is renting out women’s bodies preferable to men not getting sex? Again, female suffering is a price paid for male orgasms. Surely better for men to be deprived of sex than women subjected to this?

Yes, I absolutely agree.

I've never seen so many weirdos on one thread before

Absolutely agree with this too. And the amount of women with appallingly low standards, reeking of desperation in their mission to be seen as a "cool girl" and gain male approval whilst sticking it to other women. They will not succeed, acquiescence never creates equality.

Of course, it could always be those of the hairy handed variety.

@inperfectmumma20

Personally I don't care 🤷🏼‍♀️ everyone has their own kinks! I like to be "choked" etc during sex and men have a kink for it so why not 🤷🏼‍♀️ I don't see a problem. Everyone has their own weird fetishes so why not make it their reality and have a robot instead of there being a chance a man could possibly hurt a woman? There's so much detail I could go into about how much I support these robots but I won't cause I cba tbh 😂

They really don't. Fetishes or paraphilias are quite a male thing, and even they're not something that 'every' man has. I'd like you to really think about why those men enjoy choking you. Why they enjoy the thrill of playing with your breath, stopping you from speaking, stopping you from breathing. They're getting off at the thought of killing you.

@SirChing

I remember hearing on a true crime podcasts that one of the underlying reasons for necrophilia is the lack of rejection and lack of consent needed. It's not far flung to me to imagine there are similar reasonings going on behind these dolls

Well if they are into necrophilia, breathing is the last thing they want the doll to be!

They'd be quite into if they could imagine they're the ones who lead to the death of their desired target. To see it breathing one moment and not the next.

They're getting off at the thought of killing you

And it says something dark to me that so many women are keen to point out that they love the idea of a man getting off on the thought of killing them. And even if a woman does get off independently on the idea of potentially being strangled (although I'd argue that's fairly unlikely given how rarely you hear of a woman accidentally strangling herself whilst alone) I think we should all look at our behaviour and look at the knock on effect it has on society in general. And sometimes what we want as individuals is not what's best for society as a whole. And that applies to almost every area of life, so there's no reason why it shouldn't apply to niche sexual practices too.

Incredibly vile and disturbing...

@Whatwouldscullydo

Well there's a link between those who abuse animals even as kids and grow up to hurt people.

Its not unreasonable to apply similar logic to men who spend hundreds of pounds on a doll so realistic it breathes just so they can shag it.

Most men aoukd just have want. There's something very sinister abiut someone who takes this step..

Yes it is patently unreasonable to apply similar logic. On the animal abuse and serial killer link it is Abuse in REAL LIFE on LIVING animals by a child is a warning sign that they MIGHT become a serial killer IN REAL LIFE

Playing with a DOLL is not REAL LIFE. No living creature is affected. And so therefore, it has zero relation to what a person who plays with dolls will or will not do in REAL LIFE with REAL people.

It’s like saying watching a zombie movie is likely to make you go mad eat other peoples faces off.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I dont view it as less sinister tbh.

Just an extension of the fact that many men actually don't give a shit if the woman.is enthusiastically consenting or off her face on drugs or only having sex with them because some other guy will withhold her drugs or beat her up , or whether she's half passed out and just lying there or made out of plastic.

It shows that they view us as literaly something to shove a dick in. And that because he's paid for the privilege there's nothing wrong with it.

That’s interesting that you have literally grouped a sex doll as a type of woman who just happens to be made of plastic. Sex dolls are not women. So no, they are not an extension of an unconscious unconsenting woman, not at all. Because they are not women.

The existence of sex dolls doesn’t mean that men view women as objects. If men did view women as objects, they would be no sex dolls. You seem to be anthropomorphising sex dolls. They’re not women. They are not even a living creature. They’re no more alive than a hoover. To imply that how men treat a sex doll is how they treat women is ridiculous.

Dolls are used fir role play in children though aren't they? They feed them, copy what they have seen done by parents, push them on the swing etc.

The whole point of dolls is to re enact things.

Kids eventually grow out of that and use what they have learnt. They take a real dog for a walk, change their siblings nappy, feed their baby cousin etc

So yes if an adult has a doll so lifelike it breathes with the sole purpose of shagging it then its very likely one would think tht it would spill over.

@wellthatsunusual

For what it's worth and I know this is controversial but: for men who have physical and or mental disabilities that prevent them from engaging in sexual relationships, we could possibly look at having state funded sessions with vetted professional sex workers. It wouldnt surprise me if some countries (Scandinavia?) already do something like this.

But no one, male or female, has a right to have sex, no matter how much they want it.

Agree, there is no right to sex. But using a sex doll isn’t having sex. It’s masturbation with a sex toy. Do we ask our dildos and vibrators for consent? No. Do we feel entitled to use that dildo or vibrator whenever we want to? Yes. Do we spend money on dildos and vibrators just so we can shove them in our vaginas and so on, Yes.

So what is so wrong about a man’s sex toy of a sex doll? It serves the same purpose and it is ultimate just a tool for masturbation.

Have you not been watching the news?

Many men do not even see women as human. We are a costume. A set of feelings inside their heads. We aren't respected. We are something where if we don't consent its taken by force. Wonen are bought akd sold like coffee tables.

Dolls aren't women no but women aren't even considered people either .