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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think this isn’t murder

271 replies

AldiAisleofCrap · 13/01/2021 21:30

AIBU to think this is really wrong. In America four teenagers break into a house , the home owner fires a gun and one teenager dies. The boys age 17 are charged with murder and sentenced to 55 years in prison.
The judge said done one has to be held responsible but surely the teen who is dead is responsible for his own actions.

OP posts:
BooFuckingHoo2 · 13/01/2021 23:46

The crime was burglary.

Not murder.

That’s not correct. Burglary is a felony crime. If murder is a result of you committing certain felonies then the crime is also murder.

LastTrainEast · 13/01/2021 23:46

@AldiAisleofCrap

But there was no murder . It’s not like they went into a home and one of them shot the home owner that I could understand.
The general idea is that their actions led to a death. People who want to commit crimes should think about it in advance. They don't have to do it.
purpleboy · 13/01/2021 23:46

The sentence is far in excess of what is reasonable, those boys lives are totally ruined. However I think many on this thread underestimate the lever of terror you are faced when someone breaks into your home, and we are talking about 4 men.
I fully support homeowners taking whatever action they need to in order to keep themselves safe, if that results in the death of a burglar, then unfortunately so be it. Criminals who put themselves in these situations only have themselves to blame.
I don't think they should be charged with murder though, just the burglary charge.

Nellieee · 13/01/2021 23:48

@CoRhona

It's supposed to stop this sort of thing happening and it's a great shame it doesn't. We now have traumatised teens who are going to spend their natural life institutionalised and a traumatised homeowner who has killed someone.

Dreadful outcome all round.

Absolutely. These harsh sentences never act as a deterrent. The murder sentence for the kids is illogical, unjust and immoral for me. Surprised so many people are defending.
hansgrueber · 13/01/2021 23:48

In the same way that if someone leaves your home drunk and has an accident, you're held responsible. I watch far too much Judge Judy.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 13/01/2021 23:50

@LimitIsUp

I've reported this thread to ask HQ to check for sock puppetry. Perhaps there isn't any going on, but for the sake of my own peace of mind I would prefer to believe that there is only one avenging harpy with multiple user names, rather than there are actually lots of people, who walk among us, who think this is okay
And you absolutely should do that if you think that might be the case.

But please also consider opening your mind to other people’s opinions and try to see it from their side.

Imagine it is dark outside, late at night. I don’t actually know if that was the case in this situation, but we need to set the scene somehow so let’s go with that for now.

It is late. It is dark. You are home alone. Or perhaps home with your teenage daughter. Or your toddlers. There is a massive noise downstairs of the door being battered down. Or perhaps there is silence save for strange squeak from the bottom of the staircase that alerts you to an intruder.

You get out of bed, quietly, to check what is going on. It is probably all just in your mind, right? You don’t want to call the police and distract them from more important work when it could be nothing but your over active imagination.

But at the same time it could be something. You have a gun (as is your absolute legal right in the US) so you pick it up as you head towards the stairs. As you turn the corner you see four large and looming male figures that all turn towards you as your take that last step....

What are you going to do? There are four of them. Why are they in your home? Did they break in to steal from you? Can you reason with them? Are they high? Are they armed? Do they have guns? Will the noise wake your children? Are they going to hurt your kids? Will they rape your teenage daughter?

They have already committed an aggressive criminal act by breaking into your home.

It is four against one to protect your home and family.

What are you going to do?

One shot could save everyone. It will scare the others off. Then you can call the police.

A shot in the leg would be great but it is a hard target in the heat of the moment and with movement. This isn’t a Hollywood. Getting off one shot in their general direction would be good enough.

Oh, look. There is blood on the carpet. You actually hit one of them.

————————————————

A few questions:

Could you imagine feeling scared enough to pull a trigger in your own home?

Particularly if you were protecting your own body or that of your family?

If a law exists as others have described that punishes fellow criminals if one of them is injured or killed in the course of committing a crime, is it unreasonable to enforce it?

Should such a law exist?

If it does, what should be the maximum and minimum sentence?

———————————-

(To save everyone scrolling back and reading my own opinions posted earlier - I agree with everything except the sentencing which I think was outrageous. I could probably be persuaded with regards to whether such a joint enterprise law should exist).

Wtfdidwedo · 13/01/2021 23:50

I think the specifics on this case was that it took place in the afternoon, three 16/17 year olds were skiving school, they noticed the house opposite had a car missing off the drive so could be empty. They got two slightly older boys to join them, knocked on the door and when noone answered four of them ran in and one waited outside as lookout. The homeowner had been asleep upstairs and shot at them when he woke and heard them. It was definitely more of a spur of the moment stupid decision by kids than a planned attack, although it was of course terrifying for the homeowner.

Does a 16 year old boy standing guard outside a house deserve 55 years in prison for that? Not in my opinion. Especially not as US prisons are punitive and in no way help rehabilitate. People forget that eventually criminals rejoin our society. If we don't give them something to come back for, then the vicious cycle continues.

Mommyme74 · 13/01/2021 23:50

@BertieBotts. Why would the homeowner cop a murder charge? US law allows its citizens to use deadly force. He committed no crime. The four intruders however, did. As a dual citizen I totally support the constitution and the rights it affords me and my family.

Aquamarine1029 · 13/01/2021 23:50

I have no sympathy for burglars. But I struggle to find that someone can be charged with murder when they did not fire the gun.

These young men are responsible because the firing of that gun never would have happened if they weren't committing the crime that they did. Their actions caused that person to die.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 13/01/2021 23:51

@hansgrueber

In the same way that if someone leaves your home drunk and has an accident, you're held responsible. I watch far too much Judge Judy.
If you help them into the car and help them start it. Then it would be the same.

Your example would fit if the lads said "we shall burglar" and left and the one staying at home would be held legally responsible.

BritWifeinUSA · 13/01/2021 23:53

@marchez

There was a case in the US where someone lent someone else their car. The car was then used in a crime (forget which one) but the owner of the car was also charged and sentenced as they lent the car out.
The law of parties. Most states have this. Must have had a bad lawyer if they are actually convicted of it. Either that or they knew full well what the car was being borrowed for.
grannyinapram · 13/01/2021 23:53

what about that fella in the UK who got done for attacking a burglar in the night with a hammer or something? there is no logic to that.

if a group of young lads broke into my house and one ended up dead and the rest sent to jail for life, id be glad! The boys knew what they were doing. they were 17 not 7.

chomalungma · 13/01/2021 23:54

These young men are responsible because the firing of that gun never would have happened if they weren't committing the crime that they did. Their actions caused that person to die

When does responsbility end?

Who else bears responsibility for that crime being committed?

chomalungma · 13/01/2021 23:55

if a group of young lads broke into my house and one ended up dead and the rest sent to jail for life, id be glad! The boys knew what they were doing. they were 17 not 7

Really? You want to see burglars sent to jail for life?

Blackberrycream · 13/01/2021 23:56

@BooFuckingHoo2

I wonder how many parents on here would be happy if their teenager ended up as part of a group - and then someone in that group pulled a knife and stabbed someone?

If they were going for a walk no I wouldn’t be happy. If they were going out to commit a robbery I’d see the logic in them being held responsible yes.

That is quite naive. Being in the vicinity, you are assumed to have knowledge. Read up on it and examples of how it has been applied. I personally know of a boy who was given a 16 year sentence. It is well known that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It is a minefield for children growing up in inner cities. They will know all kinds of characters from school etc. This case involved a large group on the street and the crowd were held accountable for the actions of one person. They were also referred to as a gang rather than a group.
sandandseashores · 13/01/2021 23:58

Really good law, we should have it here.

Aquamarine1029 · 14/01/2021 00:03

Who else bears responsibility for that crime being committed?

No one, because no one else committed the crime.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 14/01/2021 00:04

@chomalungma

if a group of young lads broke into my house and one ended up dead and the rest sent to jail for life, id be glad! The boys knew what they were doing. they were 17 not 7

Really? You want to see burglars sent to jail for life?

Separate the sentencing from the law.

Would you agree with the law if it meant 1 year in jail? 5 years? 10 years?

I think we almost all agree that 55 years is ridiculous for this crime.

AliceMcK · 14/01/2021 00:08

@marchez

There was a case in the US where someone lent someone else their car. The car was then used in a crime (forget which one) but the owner of the car was also charged and sentenced as they lent the car out.
I worked with a woman this happened to. She was at a party and had a few drinks so left her car keys with her friend, the party thrower. He then decides to take the car for a joy drive with his mate, they crash, mate dies, the “friend” who took the car whose now crippled for life sues my colleague and wins because she left the car keys with him. She lost everything which is why she left the US and moved home and had to live with her parents. The guy was loaded too, some kind of trust fund kid, heir to a big fortune. I can’t remember if she was charged with the death, i assume not as she left the country a year or so later.
PlanDeRaccordement · 14/01/2021 00:10

That’s the law there. Murder has no universal definition. In some states (Georgia and Texas), a woman getting an illegal abortion can be done for murder of the unborn. In Alabama pregnant woman started a fight (felony) and her victim shot her in the stomach, killing her baby. The pregnant woman was charged with manslaughter because if she hadn’t started the fight, she would not have been shot and her baby would have lived.

grannyinapram · 14/01/2021 00:11

@chomalungma

if a group of young lads broke into my house and one ended up dead and the rest sent to jail for life, id be glad! The boys knew what they were doing. they were 17 not 7

Really? You want to see burglars sent to jail for life?

Yeah, this man is going to have to live the rest of his life feeling vulnerable, waking at every noise, reliving the moment he had to take a person's life, thinking about the person he had to kill... all because some punk kid decided it'd be fun to Rob a house. If you can break into a house what else can you do? What if it was me, a small young woman they found, with no gun. rape? death? beatings? also in America guns are legal, they knew the risk, they thought they were invincible. now the streets are 4x safer than they were before.

some people take a few years in prison as part of the job and they carry on fucking peoples lives up. let them rot. better fucking off without them

Blackberrycream · 14/01/2021 00:14

@sandandseashores

Really good law, we should have it here.
Yes, great. Let’s also lock up teenage pot smokers and middle class cocaine users. The drug trade has a nasty underbelly and they should be held personally responsible. It would be a good warning to others. 55 years maybe ? Or maybe that might be your friends and children and you would see that differently. Something is very off here....
SinisterBumFacedCat · 14/01/2021 00:17

They would have got much less if they had raped someone. Fucked up Country.

ChestnutStuffing · 14/01/2021 00:20

The principle make some sense, I think. It's the same as when you have kids, and one does something wrong, that leads to some serious consequence that should have been foreseen. The child is responsible for that consequence even if they didn't intend it.

You play ball where you aren't supposed to, next to the big window, and it gets broken? You didn't intend to break it? Too bad, you still are paying for it.

When someone is shot in that scenario, the instigators of the incident are arguably responsible, at least in part. And the consequence for someone being killed, murder or manslaughter, is generally prison.

That being said, I don't think long conventional sentences in cases like this are particularly effective (granted I don't know the details of this one.) I'd rather see some other type of approach. But I do think some sort of serious punishment should be the resold when you recklessly get someone killed.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 00:20

@SinisterBumFacedCat

They would have got much less if they had raped someone. Fucked up Country.
Well... Yes... Since this was for murder👀