Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think this isn’t murder

271 replies

AldiAisleofCrap · 13/01/2021 21:30

AIBU to think this is really wrong. In America four teenagers break into a house , the home owner fires a gun and one teenager dies. The boys age 17 are charged with murder and sentenced to 55 years in prison.
The judge said done one has to be held responsible but surely the teen who is dead is responsible for his own actions.

OP posts:
BillMasen · 14/01/2021 12:36

@chomalungma

Many people on here seem to have no issue with the fact that the teenagers who were with the person who got shot dead by the houseowner have been jailed for 55 years.

I struggle with that.

It seems that some people can't separate the wanting to defend yourself and your property and the fact that these 4 people have been sentenced to a 55 year sentence.

They are 2 separate issues.

In the 'old days' people could get hung for quite minor crimes - so they decided to kill the person they were burgling instead of just committing a burglary. Why leave a witness?

I wonder if this sentence will encourage people who commit crimes and where something has happened to ensure no witnesses are left?

Again, separate the sentence from the conviction. I haven’t seen anyone agree with 55 years.
chomalungma · 14/01/2021 12:38

Again, separate the sentence from the conviction. I haven’t seen anyone agree with 55 years

So what would you say is appropriate?
20 years?
30 years?
40 years?

Whatisthisfuckery · 14/01/2021 12:38

Well, with such amazing laws it’s no wonder the crime rate in the US is so low. Wait...

MrsJBaptiste · 14/01/2021 12:45

My house was burgled and ransacked, luckily when no one was home.
I was the one who discovered it. It's a horrible, unnerving feeling to have your home, your place of safety, violated

I could have written this. It's awful. So many people honestly don't think burglary is that bad, well you can replace your stuff can't you? Yes bjt how do you calm down a 5 and 7 year old who then don't want to sleep in their bedrooms again? Who have seen their toys smashed up?

LimitIsUp · 14/01/2021 12:48

"So you should not protect your home or your family from burglars in any way??"

Most effective way to protect your family in these circumstances is to collectively run for it, not try and confront them. There is no guarantee who will come off better in that scenario

Mummyoflittledragon · 14/01/2021 12:50

@mumnowformerrockstar

I wish we had similar laws here. It would be a huge deterrent for crime.
.... and a huge reason for homeowners to use unreasonable force. This would have no affect on crime rates.

It is very scary being burgled. I was bed. So was dd. The burglar thought the house was empty.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 12:53

@MrsJBaptiste exactly. My friend came home after burglary and was then staying with me for a while every evening until her DH finished his shift.
I dealt with repeated commercial ones when we at one point had an armed burglar 10 minutes before stuff coming in who was supposed to be there well before the burglar.

Prople are not realisong how many lives this can affect. And yes, it's shit when someone fies, but honestly. What does one expect when breaking into abhouse in a country where guns are common...

DedlyMedally · 14/01/2021 12:55

@Gwenhwyfar
Serial killers are a pretty small subset in the first place. Off the top of my head you have the night stalker and the original night stalker (two different people).
My point wasn't really that "they might be serial killers", I just don't think anyone is in the wrong if someone breaks into their house in the night and says "I'm just here to take your belongings and I'll be on my" and they decide to take that with a grain of salt rather than toddling back off to bed.

SpiderGwen · 14/01/2021 12:56

This thread is horrifying.

Those lads should be in jail for burglary. That’s all. And the man who shot several and killed one should be charged with manslaughter.

They were robbing a house they had every reason to believe was empty. The man was defending his stuff, not his family. He came downstairs and shot them rather than ringing the police.

Our house has been burgled 4 times - once pretty much cleared out. It was extremely upsetting and it took a long time to feel safe. Some irreplaceable things were stolen.

None of that is worth killing over.

I can’t believe the number of gung-ho Chuck Norris types on here. It’s disgusting.

Human beings, even ones you don’t like, matter more than your tv and laptop.

chomalungma · 14/01/2021 12:56

What does one expect when breaking into abhouse in a country where guns are common

So they expect that if the person who has gone into the house is shot dead, they should be charged with murder, even though they did not fire the gun, and should get a 55 year sentence?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 12:59

So they expect that if the person who has gone into the house is shot dead, they should be charged with murder, even though they did not fire the gun, and should get a 55 year sentence?

Well they should expect a possible danger and being held responsible (again. Not agreeing with the 55 years at all)

sofiaaaaaa · 14/01/2021 12:59

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]@LimitIsUp article does state the homeowner was unaware they were unarmed. I guess he just panicked but I do think there seems to be a culture that you can pretty much do what you want in the US if someone breaks into your home.[/quote]
We have self defence is a defence in the UK too. It’s just that Americans are allowed to carry guns and therefore discharge them in certain states to protect themselves. If a UK homeowner stabbed an intruder who then died from their injuries, chances are the homeowner wouldn’t be charged if they can prove they used reasonable force proportionate to the threat posed.

chomalungma · 14/01/2021 13:00

Well they should expect a possible danger and being held responsible

So what sentence would you give then?

And what would you charge them with?

sofiaaaaaa · 14/01/2021 13:00

*as a defence

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 13:01

I have never in real life seen such strong defence of that poor, poor souls criminals like on MN. Whether it's theft, burglary or whatever, there is always bunch of people trying to explain how it's not their fault and the criminals are innocent parties made to do it and whatnot.
No. They aren't. And having shit life doesn't mean one can go and make others' lives miserable.

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 13:03

*So what sentence would you give then?

And what would you charge them with?*

burglary and causing death. Not murder, maybe not even a manslaughter. Something bit less. It's simple. They created the danger.

chomalungma · 14/01/2021 13:04

I have never in real life seen such strong defence of that poor, poor souls criminals like on MN

People commit burglary. No one is defending burglary.

But some people are able to separate that from being charged with murder and the vindictive and retrubitive nature of this sentence.

chomalungma · 14/01/2021 13:05

Whether it's theft, burglary or whatever, there is always bunch of people trying to explain how it's not their fault and the criminals are innocent parties made to do it and whatnot

Or maybe....the reasons for criminal behaviour are complex societal issues. And not just a Twitter soundbite

ProfessorSlocombe · 14/01/2021 13:09

If a UK homeowner stabbed an intruder who then died from their injuries, chances are the homeowner wouldn’t be charged if they can prove they used reasonable force proportionate to the threat posed.

It happened not that long ago. Burglar stabbed with his own weapon and householder not charged.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-48134851

A 79-year-old man who killed an armed burglar with a kitchen knife acted lawfully, an inquest has decided.

...

Generally UK law has it sort of right. Personally I don't like the retrospective nature of judging "reasonable" when we are dealing with events that happen well away from nice courtrooms where everyone is friends. However I can't think of any egregious examples where the courts have got it wrong.

I also believe that a person in their own home should be afforded more leeway than a person in the street. On the street you may have the possibility of fleeing which is always preferable to confrontation and violence. However once you have "fled" to your own home, where are you supposed to run then ?

Mildly surprised to get this far into a thread like this with no mention of Tony Martin ....

AwaAnBileYerHeid · 14/01/2021 13:09

@Gwenhwyfar

"On the other hand I can’t really get worked up about scumbags who break into people’s houses - they destroy people’s lives."

A burglary destroys someone's life? Compared to murder?
The punishment for burglary should not be death.
People should be allowed to defend themselves of course, but not property.

They have a lot of silly things like this in the US. The death penalty of course, then the three-strikes law meaning people can get life imprisonment for stealing socks.

Yes, a burglary can destroy someones life. My grandmothers home was broken into when she was 82 years old. Previous to this, she was a healthy, sprightly woman, enjoyed gardening, going to the bingo, meeting up with friends etc. No health problems, always on the go. After this, she was traumatised. Too scared to leave her house, moved my cousin in as she was too scared to live alone. Didn't leave the house until she died under a year later. So yes, to answer your question, it can destroy someones life.
ProfessorSlocombe · 14/01/2021 13:10

@LimitIsUp

"So you should not protect your home or your family from burglars in any way??"

Most effective way to protect your family in these circumstances is to collectively run for it, not try and confront them. There is no guarantee who will come off better in that scenario

I don't like the idea or precedent that you should flee your own home.

To be blunt, if you can't be safe in your own home, then where the fuck can you ?

SchrodingersImmigrant · 14/01/2021 13:10

Mildly surprised to get this far into a thread like this with no mention of Tony Martin ....

I was thinking about him. So odd yet interesting case

AwaAnBileYerHeid · 14/01/2021 13:12

@Aloethere

I can't believe people are saying this is fair. These are 17 year olds who are now going to spend their lives in prison for breaking into a house. And yes depending on what happened exactly I think the man who did the shooting should be charged. Breaking into a house should not equal a death penalty.

I place pretty high value on human lives and I don't think it should be taken lightly. Someone being afriad that their tv would be robbed does not give them the right to execute somebody. Tvs can be replaced, the boys life is gone forever. I didn't read an article about this so if this man was threatened with his life then possibly I could understand him taking someone elses.

You honestly don't have the ability to understand that in a country where many criminals are armed with guns, and being confronted with 4 young, fit, able bodied criminals, it probably wasn't their TV being stolen that was their worry? Really?
chomalungma · 14/01/2021 13:13

Would people have been surprised if the accomplice in the Tony Martin case had been charged with murder?

DedlyMedally · 14/01/2021 13:14

To be blunt, if you can't be safe in your own home, then where the fuck can you ?

The way some people here are talking, it sounds like the best course of action is to flee your own home and break in to someone else's.