Self Esteem issues with LC in laws

[IABUQueen]

Hi all,

So I’ve had a very rough patch with DHs entire family few years ago where they were quite bullying to me over a prolonged period of time.

I went LC with them and blocked them on my WhatsApp after they had been quite disrespectful and just kept to pleasantries.

They tried to prove to DH that they’re better people now.. I don’t know wether to beleive them or not but frankly damage was done.

I told DH I want to remain LC and only meet them with him or on family occasions and only talk to them with him or on occasions. But that I support him to remain in touch so long as our marriage isn’t being discussed and that he doesn’t have to worry.

I also told him my kids can’t see them unsupervised because I don’t trust them to not engage in horrible parental alienation tactics and manipulation. DH thinks I’m overthinking and yes I have anxiety around them now but he respects that.

3 years on and I’m struggling with the fact they’ve all bonded and I’m excluded and how comfortable this arrangement is actually for them. I am often super hurt about why they couldn’t behave in this way when I’m around and only put effort with DH when I’m excluded.

They’re cold with me. But act lovingly Infront of DH. We all know we are rubbing along for the sake of DH.

I usually put effort when I see them as I sincerely want things to be different.. I never wanted to feel so excluded and it really hurts .. especially that my family really honour DH..

DH is distant from them.. but for the sake of his mental health I told him to not feel obliged to b as extreme as I am with them. That he should visit them without me.. call them without me.. and so on..

But this resulted in them actually bonding as if nothing happened at all. DH doesn’t spend much time with them because naturally he won’t feel comfortable leaving me behind.. but the little things that I see that makes me feel like they have a very normal dynamic really hurts me because it makes me feel like I’m irrelevant.

Sometimes I take it out on DH unfairly even though I’m the one that wanted him to give them chances because I saw how conflicted he felt.

I think my self esteem is super fragile because of the rejection I feel but I need to learn to not take it personally as I know they’re not my family and whatever.

Anyway any words of wisdom on how to rise above it.

Thanks

[Title edited by MNHQ at OP's request]

@Bluntness100

It’s interesting you appear unwilling to give examples of their behaviour.

Not really @Bluntness100 The problem is that it can be very hard to explain why some behaviours feel 'othering' and unpleasant.

I can recount the time my BIL tried to punch me in the face - that is understood as he was being violent.

I can't explain why he tried - I was not accepting the family mantra of "It's only BIL, he's only drunk" when he told me to fuck off. I told him to mind his mouth and to get the fuck away from me - that is often seen as me having provoked him

And when I explain that, as his fist whistled passed my face, I grabbed his elbow and shoved him face first into a wall and hissed "Keep you hands to yourself or I will hurt you" I get told I was the violent one, especially given I was a kickboxercise instructor at the time (you may have been on one of those previous threads and expressed a similar sentiment).

I can tell you all the tale of that same BILS MIL-to-be introducing my DH to the vicar as "The brother she should be marrying" and all of the family agreeing.... the only time I have ever felt sorry for BIL! You'd get that was a bit off.

But the time I went to go indoors at a BBQ to use the loo and was grabbed and told "No, don't do that", so I waited and, on asking of the loo was free yet, the grabber said "Oh! I thought you were going to spoil the food" - no idea why, but PoisonousSIL go the name for a reason!

Incidences can seem really nonsensical, sound ridiculous, but accompanied by the looks, tone of voice, body language etc can be extremely upsetting and colour every meeting ever after!

But curious you were fully able to give your incidences there.

My point is the op has not even tried, she has given no examples.

So she is accusing them of bullying, abuse, the lot. She gives no examples of such behaviour.

She tells us her husband has a normal healthy relationship with them. She also lets us know she feels jealous, has low self esteem, insecure, suffers from anger, panic attacks etc.

What I am trying to understand is is she the problem, or is it them? Likely it’s both. There are always two sides to a story. It may be she is over sensitive snd they are overly blunt. It may be they are bullying abusers as she describes, it may be the truth is somewhere in between.

But no one can help her get to the bottom of this if she is unwilling to even describe what they have done to her.

But she has given examples, they are very low key, as I said! I had to dig out the very worst over 15 years to find my examples. Many more where much as OP has already said they told my DH a story once Infront of me “family always stick together against an outsider”. Their idea of a family unit is a gang.

Sounds daft but is very barbed and puts you on the outside.

All those family excuses - OP's had social issues, mine were just drunks. You accept the insults, casual nastiness or you are in the wrong, nobody know what the hell is up with you!

They act so very closeknit and lovely when DH visits so he comes home wth warm family tales to tell... and you see one in the street and they cut you dead, or as PoisonousSIL was wont, say "DH had a lovely time with us all last weekend" and smile. All inoccuous but barbed.

She tells us her husband has a normal healthy relationship with them. No, she doesn't. She tells us that he is aware that they can be quite a hostile environment. He is used to it, it is his normal but, as my DH did, he recognises how they can turn aside anyone else. He sees their bevahiour but has no other coping tactic than accepting it! Hardly surprising as they are his family, have been like that all of his life!

OP,
You have explained things very well.

I can well imagine the upset that they have successfully excluded you and your husband who knows bloody well what they are like continues on his merry way.

I am genuinely amazed at relationships surviving such disloyalty.

He knew well what they were like but chose to allow them to behave badly without consequences.

You were young and inexperienced and looking back regret stepping back and not standing up for yourself.

Your children having lovely times with them and your husband is galling and further reward.

Again, very difficult to navigate and not be affected by.

Your husband has huge culpability in all of this.

I can't imagine it must be easy to have any respect for such a weak selfish man.

How close to you do they live?
I would be hugely limiting their interaction with your children, even at this stage.

Let your weak excuse of a husband visit his family but reduce their time with your children.

I wouldn't trust your husband to do the right thing by you, he is far too likely to suit himself.

Loyalty is hugely important in a marriage IMO.

I definitely think getting counselling would be very helpful for your self issues.

@Bluntness100

But curious you were fully able to give your incidences there.

My point is the op has not even tried, she has given no examples.

So she is accusing them of bullying, abuse, the lot. She gives no examples of such behaviour.

She tells us her husband has a normal healthy relationship with them. She also lets us know she feels jealous, has low self esteem, insecure, suffers from anger, panic attacks etc.

What I am trying to understand is is she the problem, or is it them? Likely it’s both. There are always two sides to a story. It may be she is over sensitive snd they are overly blunt. It may be they are bullying abusers as she describes, it may be the truth is somewhere in between.

But no one can help her get to the bottom of this if she is unwilling to even describe what they have done to her.

I agree with this.

The OP is accusing her ILs of bullying and abuse, but the only example offered is that one of them once told a story that included the statement that 'The family always stick together against an outsider' in front of her and her DH -- which doesn't seem to me to be either bullying or abuse. They may have been including her as 'family', or it may have been a mild needle.

I'm assuming this is only one incident of many, but it seems significant that this is the one she chose to tell.

Also that she has chosen to go LC, but now feels excluded from her DH's happy relationship with his family, and she also says that her DH would willingly cut off contact altogether for her sake, but that she doesn't want to be the one who tells him to do it. Which leaves one wondering what the OP does want, other than completely different ILs?

I feel I should have a conversation with DH first about my feelings before putting out the details of my marriage issues in a public forum to be dissected and then goad me into having a very loaded conversation with DH on a topic that’s quite triggering for both of us anyway.

There is nothing that I could say that should make anyone form a full judgement. Both sides are available on this forum but thankfully I’m anonymous and they are to me too! (Wave at sister in law who gives me grief).

But the advice I received from those that resonate with my experience is really helpful in helping me articulate to DH. It’s a topic we both tiptoe around and it gives me anxiety so I shut down when I feel I won’t know how to handle it so I equally don’t want to put myself in a vulnerable place in this forum when I’m already feeling fragile in real life.

billy1966 thank you so much for breaking it down in this way, you helped me extract my words out of my emotions.

CuriousaboutSamphire
Thank you so much for sharing your experience and explaining those invisible dynamics that are so hard to express. I feel like I have to write down on a piece of papers everything I want to say to DH and borrow your terminology.

I’m aware that many people on here find this dynamic strange. It suggests that you are extremely lucky people who I envy so much because once I also considered such dynamic unnatural and perhaps judged it to be an intolerant daughter in law issue... because I had no clue how toxic some people can get.

But I’ve been long enough on mumsnet to know I’m not alone in this. And so I knew I’ll have few sisters in misery understanding me without over sharing. Thank you xx

I suspect your anxiety is hugely tied up in the fact you are now, upon reflection, massively pissed off with your husband and how badly you have been out manoeuvred by his family.

They are all having a lovely time, with your children, after being so unpleasant to you.

Is he tentative because he knows you are rightly upset at how things have panned out?

Neither of you, especially YOU, are not articulating YOUR justified anger and resentment.

When you don't speak honestly and frankly, you end up putting greater space between you.

This space wont disappear.
It will just become greater and more powerful.

You need to find a way to speak honestly with your husband about how unhappy you are.

Because you really are unhappy.

I don't think you are unreasonable at all, to not be happy with the status quo.

You have every right to change your mind because you are not happy.

Your husband has very conveniently put himself first in all of this.

I think you need to put yourself first going forward and leave your husband to himself.....he'll survive....men like him always do.

But now you’re saying it’s ‘marriage issues’,rather than your ILs behaving badly towards you. And the only people you’re responding to are the ones who are projecting their own complex family dynamics onto what you’ve not really said.

You are also now saying that the people who aren’t sympathising immediately with you are ‘lucky’ because we haven’t dealt with ‘toxic’ ILs — but maybe we have. Maybe we manage our relationships with them assertively, or seldom see them, or regard their poor behaviour as not much to do with us, or don’t give them much headspace, or we have come to terms with DPs maintaining some form of relationship with his parents. Or that he doesn’t.

And the only people you’re responding to are the ones who are projecting their own complex family dynamics onto what you’ve not really said

This. If someone agrees with you and projects their own issues you respond whilst basically declaring you can’t give examples because it would be outing, or difficult, and the one example (apologies I didn’t even consider it an example) could be taken either way.

Bottom line is if you just want validation that you’re right, it’s not you, it’s them, then some people will give it to you.

If you want help to see if you can resolve this and make it healthy, then giving examples in wide brush strokes is required.

But you don’t want help to fix it, you just want help to ensure your husband can’t speak to you about his family.

That does cut both ways!

For as many posters like me who have empathy with OP there are posters like you, Bluntness and Claus, who project their own ideas and experiences and decide she is just pfaffing about nothing much!

Op, twas ever thus on mn though, those of us who have been through it, get it.

The only cloud and source of problems in my marriage are my in laws and I'd love to never see them again and I wish I hadn't bothered with them for so long.
I can't even stand the way they are around my dc.
Covid has been such a blessing on that front. Personally I'd be heart broken if my adult children were thankful of a global pandemic just to keep me away.

They can't see themselves as anything but amazing, they are removed from the reality.

My dh never initiated contact and unfortunately it was me in the early days stepping into that role.

What literally saved our marriage was a relate counsellor. We only had about 3 sessions. But hearing it from a removed 3rd party and given strategies was fab.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

That does cut both ways!

For as many posters like me who have empathy with OP there are posters like you, Bluntness and Claus, who project their own ideas and experiences and decide she is just pfaffing about nothing much!

Eh, what now? 😂

I’ve been through it, my mil was not by greatest fan and I could give plenty of examples of her behaviour.

So becayse I’ve been through it, asking for examples and not just blindly saying there there, it’s all them it’s not you, is the way to help.

"3 years on and I’m struggling with the fact they’ve all bonded and I’m excluded and how comfortable this arrangement is actually for them."

I mean... you want no/low contact with them and now you are surprised they are cold to you and you aren't included?

It also seems like you didn't overly do the LC to benefit yourself but to use it as a threat and now you are upset that they aren't begging for you to come back?

Without understanding the back story that lead to this it is impossible to say who is being unreasonable.

@IABUQueen You haven't given any examples, so all I can infer is you think your in-laws have behaved badly, you've tried to go low contact, and whilst you've told your DH that he can keep a relationship with them if he wants, you said that because you felt you had to, and feel upset that he actually took you up on that face value. You wish he had been so offended on your behalf that he'd also tried to cut them out.

So, where do you go from here?

They're his family. Unless they've done something truly despicable (it doesn't sound like they have, just that they've been rude), he's going to want a relationship with them.

Assume he's not going to cut out his family for you.

Him having a relationship with them whilst you don't, is clearly upsetting for you.

That leaves you also having a relationship with them. How do you feel about that? What if you and your DH agreed on some boundaries and behaviours and he promised - and meant it! - to help you enforce those? E.g. if one of his relatives crosses that boundary in his earshot, he has to defend you there and then. If you've agreed on those boundaries together beforehand, they will be reasonable to both of you, so there's no reason why he shouldn't help if he really does have your back as your husband.

I think you need to calmly and rationally make a list of things they do that you find unreasonable, read those back to yourself to assess whether they really do sound that awful when written down, and then have a conversation with your DH about them, having worked out what it is you feel needs to change for you to start rebuilding a relationship with his family. Listen to his perspective. Some of what you identify might be unreasonable - be open to that possibility - and some of it he might try to minimise. In those instances, you need to explain to him how those minimised behaviours make you feel, and that your feelings are valid.

I get that you're not comfortable posting details here, but I do think you should work on that black and white list yourself, so you can try to get some perspective yourself.

It's very easy to think 'I hate that person, they are ruining my life'. It can be more difficult to articulate why you don't like them. Break down the feelings and look for the facts. What have they actually done to make you feel that way? Why are those behaviours unacceptable?

Do some work on finding the right words, and have that conversation with your DH. And you know what, no matter what the real truth is, you're unhappy. That deserves a bit of empathy, and that's what I'd like to give to you. I can see you're not happy, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I hope you can find a way of working through it, with your DH's support. Everyone deserves to feel better than you do right now.

@CuriousaboutSamphire

That does cut both ways!

For as many posters like me who have empathy with OP there are posters like you, Bluntness and Claus, who project their own ideas and experiences and decide she is just pfaffing about nothing much!

But I haven't said anything of the kind.

I've said it's curious that the only example she has given of ILs' behaviour which she dubs 'bullying' and 'abusive' is a story told in front of her and her DH that included the remark about family banding together against outsiders, which could be interpreted in a number of ways. Anyway, for whatever reason, she perceived them as bullying. She decided to go LC but to encourage her husband to maintain a relationship with his family. and is now unhappy with the fact that he has a normalish relationship with them. She also says that he's offered to go NC for her sake, but she's not happy with that either.

She is of course entirely within her rights not to see people she doesn't get along with, but they seem to be taking up an awful lot of her headspace, for people she sees infrequently, and only when she wants to.

It would be possible to look at the OP's situation as a success in that she's managed things effectively to minimise seeing people she doesn't like and feels treat her badly, while not blocking her husband's relationship with his family (which she says is important for his MH). But she doesn't see it that way, and seems to want them to miss her, and be hurt that they apparently all have a comparatively untroubled relationship when she's not around.

I also don't understand? You wanted reduced contact. You got it. Now you feel excluded? But it's what you wanted. That's what low contact means.

The OP doesn't have to justify herself by dissecting her information piecemeal on this thread.

If she wants her DH to break contact with his family because they've pissed her off, she's being unreasonable. Unless they're abusive there is also no reason to deprive her children of a relationship with her grandparents.

If she wants to back of and remain NC with them herself, she's very much within her rights to do this. Of course it's likely she might feel left out and resentful, but decisions do have consequences and you can't have it both ways.

DH sounds a bit of a wet lettuce if he's looking for the go-ahead from his wife to cut contact with his own family. This also places the onus of responsibility for this directly onto her. He's wrong to do this, and needs to take ownership of his own decisions.

And finally, people seem to take threads like this very personally. No one is saying OP's in-laws are 'toxic'; the word was quoted as the title of a book. But her relationship with them clearly is. There are three choices when you are in this type of situation: either suck up their unwanted behaviour, challenge them on it every time it happens, or remove yourself from that situation. In each scenario you take the consequences, and sometimes they are not pleasant. That's life.

It's hard to give examples as there is so much context that you'd need to get across. When you have a good relationship with someone it's not too hard to get over an isolated incidence of shitty behaviour. When the relationship is already bad that small shitty incident feels several times bigger.

The OP doesn't owe us this information anyway.

The OP doesn't have to justify herself by dissecting her information piecemeal on this thread.

No, absolutely she doesn't. All I'm saying is that her thought processes around them seem to be confused. She doesn't like them, they clearly don't like her and have made no bones about it, but, having made the decision to reduce contact, she's now wistful about her DH and his family getting along perfectly well without her, even though she also says she would never attempt to persuade him to stop seeing them.

I think she's absolutely within her rights to reduce contact with her ILs even if they 'just' piss her off and there's a personality clash that turned into a breach.

I mean, there are obviously - and for good reason -- strict school, workplace and legal definitions of words like 'bullying', but in relationships between adults there are quite often situations where all you can say is that X experiences Y's behaviour as bullying, and if Y doesn't agree or amend, then X needs to decide what she does about it.

No tribunal is going to descend from the sky and make an objective, legally-binding decision, much as we would sometimes like it to.

But as you say, @MarieIVanArkleStinks, whatever decision you make in dealing with behaviour that has a negative impact on you -- whether it's putting up, challenging, or cutting off or reducing contact with the person you perceive as a bully, will have consequences. The OP clearly doesn't like the consequences of her decision to limit contact, but it's hard to know what she can do about that, short of magically acquiring different, nicer ILs.

My own SIL (DH's brother's wife) hates our joint PILs and never comes to see them (she and BIL live a short flight away and PILs are now too infirm to travel), so BIL comes alone with their children, but far less often than they did, because I imagine he doesn't like SIL feeling 'left out', even if it was her decision. SIL complains to me all the time about how PILs have no relationship with their teenage children -- but that's to a large extent because they hardly ever see them because of her decision to cut contact. It's often a couple of years between visits.

And looking at the situation between my SIL and PILs, no one did anything wrong, it was largely ongoing misunderstandings down to culture and class clash.

Ok so I think it’s relevant to mention that me AND DH after some counselling believe that the dynamic is as follows:

MIL expects something from DH,
Sometimes reasonable but often overbearing,
Usually involves me and my efforts/time,
I’m often unaware of that convo between them completely,

DH doesn’t fulfil because he doesn’t want to, or behave in a way that she doesn’t like,
I’m often not there so have no idea of the dynamic either,

Result ? Me and my kids receiving ongoing rudeness for a whole year.

Because apparently DH could only disappoint his darling mother if his wicked manipulative controlling wife inspired it.

I don’t even know if she really thinks I’m manipulative and controlling. Because she actually treats me like a pushover and I struggle to stand up for myself.

But according to DH this is what goes on.. and she gives me an appropriate punishment to put me in my place.

Often times I’m oblivious and so Is DH..

This week we found out from BIL that his mother had been pissed off with DH for an entire year about something he let her down on. Abs we clocked two and two together about the astonishing amount of unwarranted passive aggressive behaviour directed at me while I was a mother of a newborn..

Apparently they made up now. And I really don’t like it.

I don’t want to go into details. This is a public forum and my in laws behaviour is quite identifiable because they’re quite “unique”. And also, I want the focus on this thread be on how to ensure that I don’t overthink their interactions with DH.

So far I’ve received good advice m. Both from those that resonate but also form those playing devils advocate. I guess I learnt I need to finetune my loaded wordings which is something I do need to do with DH otherwise he thinks I expect him to side against his parents with no evidence. I am a bit guilty of not choosing the right words when overwhelmed.

Good luck with it all, OP. It sounds as though the best thing you can both do is to remain oblivious to her 'punishments' -- nothing more irritating than someone not noticing you're huffing with them. And tell your DH clearly that he is not to 'volunteer' your services for anything.

I don’t like that they made up because when they are hostile to each other I’m the one that paid the price..

But when they’re getting on I’m left out.

If they leave me out of their miserable dynamic then I probably wouldn’t mind be left out of the joy.

But I’m only significant when they need an outlet.

Which is why I stepped back but I witnessed them use my kids as an outlet with their passive aggressive comments..

And so until they sort out their conflict between them, I’m going to need to draw a line on my kids too..

Which I did.. I think I’m more than accommodating that I’m saying they can see them supervised.

I don’t know how to explain to my kids that their dads side of the family are only ignoring them and rejecting them all of a sudden because they’re pissed off with their dad..

OP,

I love my in laws, they couldn't be nicer, better people.
So while I can't identify with this specific experience, I can tell you, they certainly wouldn't be seeing my children if they had behaved like that.
But then the truth is, I wouldn't be married and having more children with a man that is so weak and so disloyal.

Your in laws are nothing more than bullies.
Your MIL behaves as she does as she gets what she wants.

She wouldn't be in my children's lives with her behaviour.

She bullied you for a year with a new born and your husband is happy to carry on with contact.

Your husband sounds awful.

You need to stand up to more than your MIL.

Have you any support IRL?