Travelling for Work

[SittingHereThinking1]

Here’s a question from a work colleague. Her friend (different company) has been asked to travel for work. Could be classed as essential travel, so all legal and legit. It would involve driving to the airport and getting on a nine hour flight with Virgin (all passengers PCR tested, cabin air recycled every 2-3 minutes), all passengers masked. Business class, so fewer surrounding passengers. Two weeks immediate isolation on arrival, so no chance of passing it on at the other end. The destination has basically no Covid at all. She would be staying there for a month.

She has refused, and she is outraged that the company has asked her to travel, saying it is too high risk. She is saying that she is too worried of catching it and spreading it to go.

I think she hasn’t done her calculations correctly. She lives in London, is part of a support bubble with two people (who have also met other people and been out shopping etc as per the legal guidelines) and has met friends outside for walks (all within the law of course). Basically she has been and will continue to interact with people on a daily basis who have a 1 in 20 chance of being infected. For 30 days, when 29 of those could be zero risk.

What I have issue with is her estimation of risk. Surely over a month in London there is statistically a much greater chance of catching the virus, vs 11 hours of travel (two in the airport and 9 surrounded by PCR negative passengers wearing masks in the plane.) She’s vastly more likely to catch it and pass it on in a London supermarket. AIBU in thinking her estimation of risk is just factually incorrect, and she would be at much lower risk over time of catching and spreading it if she went?

@globeus I honestly don’t know! Maybe they have symptoms, maybe they are misusing NHS resources, maybe it’s the lateral flow test, but there’s no way to really know how people are getting it.

It’s a principle really. Does she consider that the work is essential at this time and to do in person? I used to travel massively with work and be away 30% of my time. A lot of what I did when I got there could have been done using video call-wasn’t as easy to set up for most of years I was doing it, but now certainly could have been.
Sometimes companies think you have to be there in person, but really unless you’re physically needing to do something as in engineering etc a bit of creative thinking could enable it to be done online.
I would say no because to be away from home for 6 weeks plus all the weekends for 20 days work is not on. It would be bad enough for the 4 weeks plus weekends. Covid or not.
Working abroad is not like taking a holiday no matter how exotic. While she isolating she has to stay indoors where she is stuck in a hotel room. Once working she’ll be in the premises where she is...honestly working away is not jolly fun at all. Hard work. Isolating. Even without covid,
As she’s there for 4 weeks, what if she gets it? What are medical facilities like that she,d need. Would she have to be ill in a hotel room completely relying on hotel staff . No way. If she ends up hospitalised or seriously ill out there her return could be delayed by days weeks or even months. I assume that is what she doesn’t want to risk,

I would say that whilst your estimation of risk are probably correct, I view that as irrelevant. It is the risks around what then happens if she does get it.
If she picks it up in london, she at home, with medical services she knows and can navigate and a potential support bubble. Shopping deliveries etc.
If she gets it while travelling she in strange company, trying to navigate their medical system and liaise with Hr teams back home/insurance companies if she needs medical help. No support bubble. Relianat on hotel.
That is the risk for me

Strange country not company

Why is any of this your business at all?

I'm coming at this from a different angle and saying it depends 9n how much she is getting paid.

For what they are asking from her, I'd expect something like a 30-50% uplift, and a bonus on completion.

It's a huge disruption to her life because of the 2 weeks isolation and the added risks of travelling. So only reasonable if the employer asking this of her makes it worth her time.

These flights are often full of international oil workers getting paid massive bonuses to inconvenience themselves, even in non pandemic times.

@MintyMabel it’s not. I just want to know in the abstract why walking through an airport where frankly no one needs to touch any surfaces at all (passports are all contactless these days) is so dangerous vs me going to Asda where I’m passing more infected people and touching more infectious surfaces than anyone needs to in an airport. Every time I open the freezer cabinet or pick up a ready meal or pass some random there’s much more chance of getting infected than a one off (probably more ‘high alert’) trip to the airport.
Too be honest I don’t care and I’m not invested in any way. People just keep asking me questions and it seems rude not to answer. But with that said I’ve wasted far too much time on a hypothetical and so I’m not going to answer any more because no one apart from one vaguely has tried to answer the actual question

And for those of you smugly going stay at home. Wow you just need to have a think about what you’re saying. My OH is a key worker in a hospital. Yeah he should just stay home and sod helping people. There are many many legit reasons to travel. No one is talking about having a jolly. I know someone who’s traveled to africa to distribute aid. But sod it stay at home they can look after themselves. Honestly there are a lot of very abort sighted people on here.

Thank you for those who tried to answe my question. I’m still not convinced an airport is inherently more dangerous than a supermarket or other indoor space in london at the moment (and of course adjusted for time we are talking about more contact hours in London). But hey!

no one needs to touch any surfaces at all

Ugh? Going to the loo, collecting your baggage off x-ray, collecting tickets from airline staff, buying water in duty free, doing up your seatbelt on the plane?

[quote Kseason]@notimagain Yes NHS drive-in PCR certificates, mostly! They allow the NHS certificates for boarding on most airlines from the UK. Other countries have "fit to fly" certificates that tend to be less expensive than the UK ones, so more popular in those countries.

@sittingherethinking1 Absolutely not a strange question at all. I know flights are 50-75% full out of Heathrow now, regardless of their reason of travel. I am not the covid police, so not going to find out if all that travel is essential :)[/quote]
Thanks, Interesting it's NHS PCR involved..

As far as loads on Heathrow flights I guess it's worth pointing the actual number of flights per day/week/month to most destinations is massively reduced, so those that have to fly have fewer flights to get on to.

I guess it's worth pointing the actual number of flights per day/week/month to most destinations is massively reduced, so those that have to fly have fewer flights to get on to.

This is actually increasing the flights people have to take as many are having to do more layovers to reach their destinations.

I just want to know in the abstract...
Bizarre reason to post. Simply an invitation for everyone to judge this “friend of a friend” in the way you are.

When I first started reading this I thought it was some sort of complicated reverse about all the celebs visiting Dubai!!

I can completely see your point op, I think that supermarkets are actually quite a high risk location. I’m not sure the airport would be any worse in comparison. But, I have kids at home, big enough to look after themselves but I wouldn’t want to risk being stranded abroad when I am already taking what would be quite an extended business trip. This ‘risk’ would swing it for me.

* so I’m not going to answer any more because no one apart from one vaguely has tried to answer the actual question *

Which if you had a modicum of insight, would give you your answer!

I think it’s a bit odd how invested you are when you don’t even know the person.

@GlobeUs

I guess it's worth pointing the actual number of flights per day/week/month to most destinations is massively reduced, so those that have to fly have fewer flights to get on to.

This is actually increasing the flights people have to take as many are having to do more layovers to reach their destinations.

Thats very very true for those that have to travel

I was clumsily trying head off any thoughts that flights being 50% to 75% full (some are, some aren't) equated to aircraft movements and footfall through the likes of Heathrow being back to 50%-75% of normal.

I think you’re too focused on the airport rather than the flight itself- I would think that’s the risky part of the trip given the unreliability of pcr tests, particularly on a long flight where people are bound to remove masks to eat or drink at some point

I think the issue might be known/understood v unknown risk. She could well underplay the risks being in the U.K. because she believes she understands the risks involved in going to a supermarket + meeting up with select people whereas she sees the risks associated with travel as less known or understood so can't apply rational thought to the situation.

In a supermarket you constantly touch items touched by others so sanitise before going in but generally not while going round so there is a risk of having an itchy eye 20 minutes in and rubbing it having picked up Covid from a product and bam you've caught Covid. In an airport you can sanitise before and after the limited interactions you have checking in, going through security, passport control etc and then wipe down the whole area in business. My take therefore is that the supermarket is more risky than flying.

I think you’re too focused on the airport rather than the flight itself

Who me? In which case no not at all, I'm well aware the flight itself is another matter.

I was specifically addressing the issue of observed load factors ( which was mentioned upthread) and the danger of equating that to numbers travelling globally...

OP, you seem to think that touching surfaces poses a high level of risk of transmission, whereas it's been proven that this is actually a low level risk. Some countries have even issued guidance that you should stop wiping down groceries etc. The highest risk of transmission is when you spend 15 minutes or more indoors with someone infected with Covid.

The one simple act of being on an airplane with an infected person AND removing your mask for eating your food/drinking water which you WILL do on a 7+ hour journey increases your risk of catching Covid far more than any supermarket visit will do. If you assume the person does not eat or drink for the whole time they are at the airport and plane, then this risk goes down but it's not humanly possible.

This is a good read, especially the section on Touching Surfaces: www.vox.com/science-and-health/2020/5/22/21265180/cdc-coronavirus-surfaces-social-distancing-guidelines-covid-19-risks