Travelling for Work

[SittingHereThinking1]

Here’s a question from a work colleague. Her friend (different company) has been asked to travel for work. Could be classed as essential travel, so all legal and legit. It would involve driving to the airport and getting on a nine hour flight with Virgin (all passengers PCR tested, cabin air recycled every 2-3 minutes), all passengers masked. Business class, so fewer surrounding passengers. Two weeks immediate isolation on arrival, so no chance of passing it on at the other end. The destination has basically no Covid at all. She would be staying there for a month.

She has refused, and she is outraged that the company has asked her to travel, saying it is too high risk. She is saying that she is too worried of catching it and spreading it to go.

I think she hasn’t done her calculations correctly. She lives in London, is part of a support bubble with two people (who have also met other people and been out shopping etc as per the legal guidelines) and has met friends outside for walks (all within the law of course). Basically she has been and will continue to interact with people on a daily basis who have a 1 in 20 chance of being infected. For 30 days, when 29 of those could be zero risk.

What I have issue with is her estimation of risk. Surely over a month in London there is statistically a much greater chance of catching the virus, vs 11 hours of travel (two in the airport and 9 surrounded by PCR negative passengers wearing masks in the plane.) She’s vastly more likely to catch it and pass it on in a London supermarket. AIBU in thinking her estimation of risk is just factually incorrect, and she would be at much lower risk over time of catching and spreading it if she went?

But is it morally wrong if the "traveller" is involved in anti-Covid research, or similar..and their visit is for work or research purposes may actually improve the health prospects of those in the host country?

I've heard the same "just stay at home" argument rolled out when some have objected to transport workers entering countries, despite the fact the individuals may have gone through testing/checking prior to and/or on arrival... and despite the fact the individuals may be involved in helping supply a country (big or small) with much needed pharmaceuticals /PPE etc...

The "stay at home" mantra is all very well when applied to some jobs/tasks but it is not a panacea...every case is different...some travel for some people may sometimes have benefits to a country, even in the current circumstances.

What does she do?

@notimagain

But is it morally wrong if the "traveller" is involved in anti-Covid research, or similar..and their visit is for work or research purposes may actually improve the health prospects of those in the host country?

I've heard the same "just stay at home" argument rolled out when some have objected to transport workers entering countries, despite the fact the individuals may have gone through testing/checking prior to and/or on arrival... and despite the fact the individuals may be involved in helping supply a country (big or small) with much needed pharmaceuticals /PPE etc...

The "stay at home" mantra is all very well when applied to some jobs/tasks but it is not a panacea...every case is different...some travel for some people may sometimes have benefits to a country, even in the current circumstances.

Of course not if it's anti-covid research. Surely the OP would have told us that is what this work travel is for if that was the case. Helping the country is different obviously. This sounds like a corporate business trip to me - business class travel, quarantining in desirable surroundings etc.

@LaceyBetty I did tell you that it is. But to be honest that’s irrelevant which is why I didn’t want to get into it. The issue is that people in london are spreading it on a daily basis. Don’t know where you live that you can stay home at all times but where I am, you have to go to the pharmacy and get shopping and everyone is going for a walk every day with a friend (mostly different friends.

And the govt have never just said stay at home. That’s total rubbish. It’s always been if you can’t work from home go to work (except for March). I mean cleaners and nannies are hardly essential are they? But they’re still working.

I would class her work as essential. And if you are sensible before you go, take a PCR test and travel sensibly I don’t see why you’re at more risk of spreading anything than staying here. I mean how many people do you really see on the way out of an airport. As far as I’ve understood it it’s NZ style quarantine (in a nicer place - that bit is outing so can’t go into it), so no hanging around at the baggage carousel.
NZ is a great example. If it was so dangerous there would be hundreds of cases of imported Covid in NZ. There haven’t been. I mean that is basically proof right there. So few cases imported there must mean it is possible to travel relatively safely. And so they require a negative PCR? Probably but I don’t know

Dunno why business class- probs because airplanes practically empty. But there it is.

Anyway sorry full day of home schooling ahead. Got to safe my energy. It’s been fun!

Covid can and does escape from quarantine. If it wasn’t for overseas arrivals Australia would be Covid free right now. An entire city just had to shut down for three days because one hotel cleaner caught the new UK variant. Now there is a concern that it might have spread through the hotel she was working at and it has been evacuated.

Due to the ongoing clusters state borders shut with nearly no notice and some Victorians currently in Sydney have no way of currently returning home.

Obviously we can’t stay shut off from the world once the vaccine is rolled out but until then quarantine international travellers and returning citizens is causing real issues. Not surprisingly many Australians want international flights stopped until the quarantine situation can be sorted.

The OP has said this woman is front line and part of a project investigating how covid could end.

This woman is clearly very senior, if being sent away for a month at a time like this to work on this project regarding covid.

Do you not think OP that she may have a better grasp of the situation and risk than.... you?

@Sethy38 nope not senior especially. Part of a team. I don’t care whether she is going or not. What I care about is knowing (for me own personal interest) what exactly is so risky about an airport? That’s all. It’s not complicated.

She’s part of a team investigating his covid works

OP surely you can grasp she is in a better position than most to assess the risk!!

And you say she’s going with someone else? Op they are not going to send someone away for a month to the other side of the world to investigate how covid works

Unless she is senior. And well regarded

@Sethy38 with a whole team. Yes. And no I wouldn’t say she’s massively more knowledgeable than the rest of us. But all of this is beside the point because it’s not remotely relevant who she is or what she does. What I have always asked is, per minute is an airport more dangerous than a supermarket. That’s it. And if so, why!

So bizarre!

@Sethy38 so angry.

@Sethy38 and not remotely bizarre. People have been travelling through this whole thing for all sorts of reasons: charities, vaccination programmes, public health, infrastructure. All sorts of people. Not just senior staff. It’s ludicrous that you think this is weird.

Well the destination is either India, The Caribbean or America at 9 hours with Virgin. Those are the only options.

No, I wouldn't be travelling to either at the moment. Isolation, no matter how many stars the hotel will have, is not pleasant, particularly in a time zone that is not in line with friends and family in the UK.

I, by the way, am about to start travelling frequently for work - I am being very careful about my schedule.

What is risky about an airport? You have multiple surfaces to touch, you have people from all over the globe, some from countries with higher rates, many of whom will have travelled to multiple destinations on multiple flights.

I stand by “bizarre”
(This thread that is!)

To answer your probability question, I don't have the figures, but there is a high risk of catching Covid at airport+flight. I know a country that tests all incoming passengers and they identify 20-100 cases daily who boarded with a negative PCR certificate but landed and tested positive. So clearly they caught Covid somewhere along the way (taxi, airport, transit, lounge, flight, etc). Also, you are in a closed "room" while at the lounge and on the plane with a much higher possibility of transmission especially if you are taking your mask off for drinking/eating. Less probability of catching Covid in London if you stick to the 2m rule at all times.

I don’t know her. She’s someone a friend vaguely knows from work

So basically you don't know any details or the reality of the situation?

What is the job she is doing which requires this kind of travel on site rather than remotely working with local teams?

If she doesn’t go I will.

New Zealand is actually on the Covid edge right now given the number of cases they have had from incoming travellers - yes they've been caught in quarantine but they could have affected people on the flights or at the airpots.

Perfect example of why people may chose not to travel actually.

You seem extraordinarily invested in this situation given that you say you don't even know this woman.

I don't have the figures, but there is a high risk of catching Covid at airport+flight. I know a country that tests all incoming passengers and they identify 20-100 cases daily who boarded with a negative PCR certificate but landed and tested positive. So clearly they caught Covid somewhere along the way (taxi, airport, transit, lounge, flight, etc).

All with PCR certificates? I only ask because there's an underlying issue of the level of false negative results with certain forms of pre-departure testing popular in certain countries (that's why many countries are now tightening up on acceptable protocols/methods).

Sadly it's also becoming apparent there's also very definitely a thriving industry in providing false negative test certificates...sometimes the airlines catch them, it's a fair bet sometimes they don't.

@Kseason thank you for literally being the only person to try and answer my question! Very much appreciated.
Flight time uncertain. I think it’s less than 9. That’s what I originally thought but I’ve been told it’s not that far. Either way, the airport and plane were the question. So thanks for that!
I don’t think anything odd about this thread at all. As I said many people travelling for a million different reasons. The whole government is telling us to stay home brigade need to read the actual government guidelines and the law more carefully!

As I said many people travelling for a million different reasons

No, they are really not. They are travelling for essential work, to attend funerals or provide caring duties, or to return to the country of citizenship. There are very few people who are travelling for holidays, or who have travelled for holidays when it was allowed - and most of them experienced issues.

@notimagain Yes NHS drive-in PCR certificates, mostly! They allow the NHS certificates for boarding on most airlines from the UK. Other countries have "fit to fly" certificates that tend to be less expensive than the UK ones, so more popular in those countries.

@sittingherethinking1 Absolutely not a strange question at all. I know flights are 50-75% full out of Heathrow now, regardless of their reason of travel. I am not the covid police, so not going to find out if all that travel is essential :)

@Kseason how are people getting an NHS PCR test without symptoms? It is only lateral flow tests you can have without symptoms in our area...