to think Derbyshire police need to read the LAW and understand that you can't fine people when they are not breaking it

[chomalungma]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-55560814

Surrounded by police, treated like a criminal for driving 5 miles to a beauty spot for a walk.

It is not illegal to drive to exercise.

PS @JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

PLEASE take a look at my original thread that I linked you to.. I think we are on the same side here!

Quite frankly I wouldn't support this even if an offence had been committed. Laws have to be black and white so people can't bend them any which way, but enforcement needs to be proportionate to the harm the offence is doing.

Most people have bent the Covid rules, but some contraventions are more serious than others.

Whilst I see neighbours having streams of people coming and going as they have since March without any police intervention, I will absolutely not be supporting fines for people who have driven a few miles to exercise in the open air. It would be nice if they come out in response to burglaries and threats of violence too, but that may be too much to hope for.

Posters who support legal action against such minor infringements of the rules would have their minds blown if they knew there are people - a lot of them - who simply continue as though no rule applies to them. They aren't technically bending a rule with minimal additional risk, they aren't bothering with any of it. Tackle them first instead of shaming soft targets.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

Perhaps not a good idea *@benedicto* because 1984 is a novel, not a how-to guide?

But how is the current situation any better? I think I can drive 5 miles for a walk because I think that is local and I think that is reasonable and I think the 1 hour walk when I get there is long enough to justify the 5 mile drive. But a police officer may think otherwise. I get fined and have to go to court to prove my case.

I can buy a takeaway coffee but I can't drink it sitting on a bench, while walking or drive somewhere outdoors to drink it.

It is a total mind-f*ck and the police are gaslighting us about what is and isn't in the law.

Jesus what has our world come to!
It’s insanity itself that the women were arrested. No wonder the police get a bad reputation.

The stand out point from the BBC article for me was;

Human rights barrister Adam Wagner said: "There is no law against travelling to exercise. The guidance is not legally binding and the police have no power to enforce it unless it is reflected in the lockdown regulations which in this case it is not."

Clearly Derbyshire police have got too much time on their hands...

I do wonder if this would’ve happened if the two people in question weren’t young attractive females 🤔

Clearly Derbyshire police have got too much time on their hands...

Which confuses me as the police are usually complaining about how understaffed they are?..

Posters who support legal action against such minor infringements of the rules would have their minds blown if they knew there are people - a lot of them - who simply continue as though no rule applies to them. They aren't technically bending a rule with minimal additional risk, they aren't bothering with any of it. Tackle them first instead of shaming soft targets

Ah, but the soft targets are so much easier
I've mentioned on here before about a local road absolutely stuffed with small businesses which remained open throughout Lockdown 1 and are doing exactly the same now, and today I checked with a friend who lives there ard who reports there's been no change since

Odd, that ...

@benedicto absolutely agree. Our system isn’t perfect, but our legislation goes in front of parliament, and we vote for MPs who are able to vote against it. I would rather that legislation be more strict but more accurate, rather than allow individual police officers to get away with issuing fines for something which is perfectly legal - and then being backed up by the force!

[quote Justcallmecaptainobvious]@benedicto absolutely agree. Our system isn’t perfect, but our legislation goes in front of parliament, and we vote for MPs who are able to vote against it. I would rather that legislation be more strict but more accurate, rather than allow individual police officers to get away with issuing fines for something which is perfectly legal - and then being backed up by the force![/quote]
Exactly - liberty and democracy protected by separation of powers (executive, legislature and judiciary).

The police should not 'enforcing' a 'law' that does not specify any distance (e.g. miles), any time (e.g. hours) or any location (e.g. within same county/region/town/village).
Those key definitions are not specified so cannot legally be enforced.

@LastTrainEast

"but mummy said don't kick the table. I'm not kicking the table I'm kicking the chair so it's allowed"

Exactly! They are just looking for excuses. This wont stop until people stay at home and have some civic responsibility.

@JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows

Have you had a chance to read the legislation yet? What do you think?

@Puzzledandpissedoff - quite. The police really ought to have bigger fish to fry.

They pick their targets-2 women are probably easier to fine than a gang of young men for example. It's an easy win for them

[quote Justcallmecaptainobvious]@benedicto absolutely agree. Our system isn’t perfect, but our legislation goes in front of parliament, and we vote for MPs who are able to vote against it. I would rather that legislation be more strict but more accurate, rather than allow individual police officers to get away with issuing fines for something which is perfectly legal - and then being backed up by the force![/quote]
This!

It astounds me how many people are happy for the police to make up the law as they go along.

Hey there Police Management, how are you going with dealing with all that domestic violence and post separation harassment and abuse?

Oh, you're all doing fuck all about it? Brill, crack on with the bullshit fines then.

Re. kicking table or chair analogy, it is more like double-yellow parking: you must not park on double yellow lines, but we will not draw these on the road until after you have parked. Where you parked might be considered to be OK, or it might be considered to be wrong and then you will be fined. If you disagree with that fine and consider where you parked to be OK, you can undertake a long and stressful legal process to prove your case and have the fine overturned. But at no time will anyone draw those yellow lines on the road.
That is the situation we have with exercise here in terms of 'local' 'short distance' 'local area', and I can't see that the law/guidelines specify whether or not you can drive for exercise

God, what a load of garment rending.

I've no doubt the government had a hand in this, and has instructed forces to "make a few examples of people, that can be reported by the BBC, so the plebs know that we mean business". This story has the fingerprints of Saint Boris's merry men all over it.

Exactly! They are just looking for excuses. This wont stop until people stay at home and have some civic responsibility.

Since when did people need an excuse to act within the law?

Too bloody right its not illegal. Show them this:

www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home#exercising

"You should minimise time spent outside your home, but you can leave your home to exercise. This should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.

You can exercise in a public outdoor place:

by yourself
with the people you live with
with your support bubble (if you are legally permitted to form one)
in a childcare bubble where providing childcare
or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household
This includes but is not limited to running, cycling, walking, and swimming. Personal training can continue one-on-one unless everyone is within the same household or support bubble.

Public outdoor places include:

parks, beaches, countryside accessible to the public, forests
public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them)
the grounds of a heritage site
playgrounds
Outdoor sports venues must close, for example:

tennis courts
golf courses
swimming pools
Children under 5, and up to 2 carers for a person with a disability who needs continuous care, are not counted towards the gatherings limits for exercising outside.

If you (or a person in your care) have a health condition that routinely requires you to leave home to maintain your health - including if that involves travel beyond your local area or exercising several times a day - then you can do so.

When around other people, stay 2 metres apart from anyone not in your household - meaning the people you live with - or your support bubble. Where this is not possible, stay 1 metre apart with extra precautions (like wearing a face covering)."

Maybe they could argue about the local area bit, but there are no guides to what local is. My local might be different to their local.

More information on fixed penalties

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/regulation/11

5. A fixed penalty notice must—

(a)give reasonably detailed particulars of the circumstances alleged to constitute the offence;

(b)state the period during which (because of paragraph (4)(a)) proceedings will not be taken for the offence;

(c)specify the amount of the fixed penalty (see regulation 12);

(d)state the name and address of the person to whom the fixed penalty may be paid;

(e)specify permissible methods of payment

And

(10) The relevant local authority may designate a person for the purposes of this regulation to issue fixed penalty notices only where the alleged offence relates to—

(a)the contravention of—

(i)a Tier 1 restriction imposed by Part 2 or 3 of Schedule 1,

(ii)a Tier 2 restriction imposed by Part 2 of 3 of Schedule 2, F1...

(iii)a Tier 3 restriction imposed by Part 2 of Schedule 3[F2, or

(iv)a Tier 4 restriction imposed by Part 3 of Schedule 3A];

(b)the failure under regulation 10(1)(c) to comply with a prohibition notice given under regulation 9 by a relevant person designated by a local authority under sub-paragraph (9)(b)(iii) of that regulation;

(c)the obstruction under regulation 10(1)(d) of a person carrying out a function under regulation 9.

Did they pop back for the photos or were the press phtographers there already?

@ComDummings

None of these fines will stand up in court

But the legislation around the fines is that you liable to pay them in the first instance but can then legally appeal them.

A lot of people would probably pay the £200 rather than go through the cost and massive hassle of a legal appeal even though they are likely to be successful.

And - here's one for lawyers

The penalties increase depending on how many have been issued.
So if you are issued with a penalty but it's found to be illegal, does that still count if you get another one?

12.—(1) Except in the cases mentioned in paragraphs (4) and (5), the amount of the fixed penalty to be specified under regulation 11(5)(c) is as follows—

(a)if the fixed penalty notice is the first one issued to the person under a relevant enactment, the amount is—

(i)£100, if the amount is paid before the end of the period of 14 days following the date of the notice;

(ii)otherwise, £200;

(b)if the fixed penalty notice is not the first one issued to the person under a relevant enactment, the amount is—

(i)£400, if it is the second fixed penalty notice so issued;

(ii)£800, if it is the third fixed penalty notice so issued;

(iii)£1,600, if it is the fourth fixed penalty notice so issued;

(iv)£3,200, if it is the fifth fixed penalty notice so issued;

(v)£6,400, if it is the sixth or any subsequent fixed penalty notice so issued.

Did they pop back for the photos?That was my thought too.