AIBU to think this can’t be true are SEN numbers

[Marmite2021]

My dd’s school had pretty dire SATS results a year or two ago and they explained this by saying 20% of that year’s class had special educational needs and that the rest of the class had achieved above average attainment. Their ofsted report suggest they had below average numbers of SEN children and that the ones they did have were being fully supported and making good progress.
For starters 20% SEN pupils in one mainstream class seems extraordinarily high, and it that is “below average” what on Earth is the average??

Why do you feel 20% of people is too many. Humans are very varied. There are lots of chromosone disorders, lots of development disorders, lots of physical and medical issues that might result in extra help being needed.

They didn’t seem to me to have said this, though. They may have identified an issue with the progress of SEN students, but this may well be explained as a result of small number of outliers in that group.

DressingGownofDoom
You whaaaaat? Clearly you have completely misunderstood my post.

Why do you feel 20% of people is too many.
When did I say it was too many??
I am shocked the numbers are so high. That doesn’t mean I want rid of them (which is clearly what DressingGownofDoom thinks I mean!)

DressingGownofDoom
OK

DressingGownofDoom
My post is about a head teacher’s comments being completely at odds with reality. I don’t understand how this implies that I think your child shouldn’t exist.

When did I say it was too many??
I am shocked the numbers are so high.

Doesn't this equate to the same thing?

You are shocked the numbers are so high, because you believe that the numbers should be lower, ideally, therefore there are "too many".

Your thread is a bit confusing because it's about 2 separate things.

1/ Did the headteacher make a poor and ill-judged excuse about SATS?
2/ Is 20% of a cohort having SEN a high number? If it's not, is this OK?

Lots of people have answered 2/ - no it's not outrageously high, yes it's OK.

1/ I'm not great at maths, so won't get into the numbers.

OP, when you say "What is driving these numbers?" when loads and loads of PPs have explained that in detail, it does come across badly, as if you are suggesting that there is something inherently wrong with the fact that children are diagnosed with SEN. And there's nothing wrong with that at all.

NoSquirrels
But I asked what was driving the numbers BEFORE pps explained. I haven’t argued with any of their explanations at all. Maybe there were crossed posts?

Thanks itsgettingweird, waves hello!

We still have a long way to go but we are finally going in the right direction (I hope).

I spoke to one of the ASD coordinators at school this week. It makes me emotional as she just 'gets it' and understands. After the way he was treated by staff and other students at his old school it feels like someone is finally listening to us. I didn't think anyone would ever understand. After five awful years, I hope it's not too late to for Ds and this will make a difference.

Right, to clarify, I do not think there’s anything wrong with children being diagnosed with SEN. It is a GOOD thing that they are getting a diagnosis. The BAD thing is that (it seems to me) they aren’t getting adequate support to “progress” at mainstream school, and that I am shocked that as many as one in five children in a class (in OUR school) are being judged against cognitive norms that they can’t (according to the SCHOOL ) achieve.

I don’t wish away any children and I haven’t called anyone dysfunctional.

Hopefully that’s a bit clearer.

BiBabbles it is “dysfunction” when they are being judged on normal cognitive expectations. I mean it as a technical term to cover “cognitive and/or physical issues that affect their learning“. Sorry if it’s the wrong term to use.

You said “should we really accept this level of dysfunction” suggesting there is another option.

My children have emotional, cognitive and processing challenges caused by circumstances in their lives utterly beyond their control. They are functioning exactly as they should given their circumstances which are as result of the physiological, neurological and emotional impact of early trauma. They aren’t dysfunctional in the least. They aren’t at the stage that some arbitrary measure says they should be, but I’d suggest it’s those measures which are “dysfunctional”

I’d love to hear what we should be doing if you think it’s not ok “to accept this level of dysfunction” in our child population.

But SEN goes beyond cognitive dysfunction. Even that list of things that falls under cognitive dysfunction covers dozens upon dozens of conditions and situations, but SEN is anything that means someone should have 'special'/additional education consideration to access the curriculum compared to the expected level.

It's quite possible the expectation may be wrong, there has been a lot of academic discussion on topics of the curriculum drifting down the years inappropriately. Also, SEN also includes just simply being significantly slower than or a significantly widening attainment gap with peers. That doesn't mean there is any dysfunction, there are more causes for these things than medical. Even when it is medical, that doesn't mean that's known.

I have cognitive dysfunction caused by brain damage. I've had it since childhood. I received additional support in some schools, but not for my brain damage which took years to be diagnosed. The need was recognized even if the cause wasn't - which did mean a rather scattergun and often blaming me effect as was the style. I'm now among the 15-20% of working-age adults with a disability. I do have dysfunctions, but society & social systems plays a role as well both in my education and now in the barriers I have.

It's impossible for every child to be average or above average period, let alone in every academic area. We could make a standard that most children should achieve, but we can't make every child above average. This is not Lake Wobegone. That school comparisons are often done on averages has its flaws.

Why do so many of our children have cognitive and/or physical issues that affect their learning? Is this just accepted as a normal level of disfunctiin in a population of children?

Except this is what you actually said, what’s the choice other than to accept?

In my class at a single form entry primary, out of 27 children we have 3 needing 1-1, full time. Plus another 4 with diagnosed SEN. Work out the ratios there.

Jellycatspyjamas I mean “this level of numbers of children with cognitive/physical dysfunction” in the sense there’s nothing (at least in our school) being done to help them progress in class. The head said they collectively dragged down the progress score. One in five children in that year group are being neglected and blamed for poor school performance.

This isn’t the message that I read from what you tell us she has said. She is (to me) trying to contextualise the data, and explain one of the major contributors to a low P8 score across the board.

Jellycatspyjamas

Why do so many of our children have cognitive and/or physical issues that affect their learning? Is this just accepted as a normal level of disfunctiin in a population of children?

Except this is what you actually said, what’s the choice other than to accept?

If it were 50% of children in a class all being tested against cognitive norms that they struggle to achieve, in order to assess the school, would that be acceptable too?

But achieving in standardised tests doesn’t mean children aren’t progressing though. We don’t have SATs and if we did I would have withdrawn her from testing for her sanity’s sake. She’s progressing academically as far as possible and has a lot of ground to make up. If you measure her against her peers or against a standardised test it would look like she isn’t progressing, if you measure her across her school career she is progressing well. I have every confidence that by the time she gets to exam stage, she’ll have caught up sufficiently to cope well.

You’re measuring progress wrongly.

If it were 50% of children in a class all being tested against cognitive norms that they struggle to achieve, in order to assess the school, would that be acceptable too?

I’d say the tests were wrong, not that the children were dysfunctional.

Burnshersmurfs

This isn’t the message that I read from what you tell us she has said. She is (to me) trying to contextualise the data, and explain one of the major contributors to a low P8 score across the board.

But even if all 12 kids got the lowest scores, that doesn’t explain the low overall score. It really doesn’t

Jellycatspyjamas

I agree, and that’s kind of my point. If one in 5 children can’t meet the expected norms then perhaps they need to lower their expected norms.

Progress scores are not cognitive norms. They are measure against academic levels. They are a recent addition as an attempt to show how much children have gone up academic levels in school, but none of it involves cognitive tests or a show of cognitive ability.