To think that women are the ones whose careers will suffer during lockdown

[RomeoLikedCapuletGirls]

So many of the working mothers I know, despite being with husbands, are the ones who seem to now be left to struggle with the problem of how to do childcare whilst WFH.

One of my friends works full-time as does her DH and whilst her DH has his own room to work in she is struggling to look after the kids and work remotely too. She does such a good job but is exhausted.

I know the reason is that he earns loads more than her, but isn’t this the issue in the first place? Men earn more (why though? Ambition, childcare, expectations, age?) so women will be the default child-carers. They also seem to be doing more of the homeschooling.

I know biology in the early years also plays a part, but it’s incredibly frustrating how precarious women’s new place in the working world is and how men’s jobs are usually more important.

Yanbu. I was looking for a new job after stagnating for a while. I’ve had to put that on the backburner as how can I take on a new job while homeschooling for God knows how long?

DH is at a level where he’d be able to set his own terms if he got a new job, whereas my career has stalled through infertility treatments, pregnancy and then being primary caregiver. It’s hugely frustrating but what can you do?

EVERYONE suffers during the lockdown. Your friend needs to be more assertive with her husband, maybe alternate days when each parent has the spare room and the other looks after the kids.

If the problem is that he earns more than her (and men do generally), as a couple they can help the situation by getting him to quit his job and find a role with less income. Funnily enough, couples never seem to agree with this idea - the fact that they can be part of the solution by always ensuring the male earns less money than the female.

I've expressed these views before and they weren't popular but if they want this sort of equality women need to share the maternity leave, stay full time, be a shared (as opposed to primary) caregiver. Don't breed with chauvinists who think childcare and housework are a woman's responsibility! Otherwise yes you will earn less than your husband and when pushed to the wire it's logical that the lower earner takes the hit as it would be catastrophic for the main earner to risk losing their job. You can't have it both ways. It's admirable and hard work to care for children but your employer and clients don't give a toss about your lifestyle choices.

I think there are some positives for working parents. In many industries WFH will become the norm or at least more acceptable. Presenteeism/long commutes etc are often the enemy of working parents. Note that I say parents not mothers.

YABU. As another poster said, everyone is suffering during lockdown you are playing the Martyr by making this a men and women's argument.

Also, I still stick by the fact that women are the main child cater in many situations because they WANT to be. I see it all the time with my friends they have intelligent capable fathers but instead block them out and act like they are incapable of doing anything to the detriment of themselves suffering.

contrmary I understand your comments on an individual basis, I was more looking at the collective situation as in how does it get like this in the first place.

Why is there such a trend? Is there anything that can be done or are we just doomed (bar assertive and exceptional individuals) to this role?

I’ll be flamed for this but my DH (unlike most of my friends) has never seen his career as more important than mine. Why? Because I earn the same as him (and I work 4 days and he is full time, I’d earn more if I were full time). That’s the best solution in my opinion. I’m not sure why so many women earn less though. We met at university and had the same level of education so it makes sense to me we earn the same (and I’ve had two mat leaves).

@honeylulu you are correct I agree.

Women don't earn what men do for a variety of reasons which I won't go into, I know many friends who decide to have kids as a way OUT of work because they hate their jobs and want a rest. Sorry, but I honestly think many women bring on many of their own problems.

Aware this isn't a popular view on mumsnet but still my opinion.

It’s the opposite it my relationship, DH and I earned similar salaries but his job took him away for about half of the year. We did a 60/40 shared parental leave and, after giving nursery a go for a while, DH gave up his career and is now a SAHD. It made more sense for us this way for us.

everyone is suffering during lockdown you are playing the Martyr by making this a men and women's argument.

I’m not playing the martyr, just analysing the societal trend and lamenting it. It doesn’t personally affect me as my child is grown.

Women in many cases have the view that men will not be as good caregivers, and therefore end up taking on the burden. As another poster said, some women should take more responsibility and not settle for a man that isn't capable of childcare.

I have read studies on this and the biological connection to fathers can be nourished just as much as for women - if the male spends enough TIME around his kids. When you have females blocking their partners out all the while then it's never going to be an equal playing field is it?

These thread are interesting as there's always a flood of posters telling us how very equally shared their parenting is.

But the stats show that the vast majority of SAHPs, part-time workers and single parents - are women.

So either the vast majority of mothers are as weak as some posters suggest or (more likely) there are wider societal and economic factors at play (not to mention workplace discrimination and the gender pay gap) that drive (assertive, confidant, capable) women into lower paid or part time employment.

Its a rather Thatcherite/1980s view that if women were just a bit more ballsy all would be ok.

I think things are changing. I'm relatively young and my career was slightly paused for infertility treatment, a bad pregnancy, and then a 6 month mat leave, but crucially I waited until I was stable and high earning in my career. I now split everything with DH. There is no 'primary' caregiver - we're 50-50. We both do compressed hours and stay home with DS one day a week. We do 50% of drop offs and pick ups, and our career takes an equal hit. If nursery shuts, we'll each do 50% of the childcare FT.

I know many friends who decide to have kids as a way OUT of work because they hate their jobs and want a rest.

I didn’t have kids as a way to opt out but I was certainly glad to take time off from a boring job. But then going back to work seemed like a breeze after the challenges of looking after a small child.

I think many women have a biological need to look after their children and this creates a disadvantage in their work life which is hard to overcome.

I think many women have a biological need to look after their children and this creates a disadvantage in their work life which is hard to overcome.

There are many biological/hormonal urges we get throughout life but doesn't mean we have to abide by them. If people want to that's fine - but they shouldn't start complaining like the OP that women have it worse through covid.

This could be solved is more women were willing to date low-earning men. Oddly enough, they don’t seem to want to.

Its a rather Thatcherite/1980s view that if women were just a bit more ballsy all would be ok.

Yes! It’s all very well to point out “you should do this” but it’s individualising a problem that is suffered collectively.

I’m certainly not blaming men (except for those individuals who actively hold sexist opinions towards the idea of their wife working) but rather the collective situation where it’s easy for people to slip into these traditional roles.

I earn about the same as my partner but he is a workaholic and is out of the home 6 days a week. I am currently trying to work from home whilst looking after my 14 month old, especially now lockdown has come in. So Yanbu to assume it will be women taking on the majority of the childcare if threads on here are anything to go by and what I am seeing in the real world.

I just hope employers are understanding!

This is my situation and I’m not a mummy martyr, I have my own career and work full time but dh works crazy hours outside the home in construction, usually at least six day weeks, meaning everything house and child related has fallen to me this year slap bang in the middle of preparing for a fairly stressful promotion. DH also didn’t do very well at school and would struggle with home ed tbh whereas I have a post grad and am more academic, not his fault but the way the cookie has crumbled here.

YANBU

I haven’t got a single female friend who isn’t taking the brunt of the childcare and homeschooling during lockdown. Always because either their partner can’t (or won’t!?) do their share or because the partner is the higher earner and they can’t afford it (which feeds back to women’s loss of earning power when they have kids).

I’m in a lucky position as me and my OH work part time and he is willing to take unpaid leave and annual leave so we can share the impact a bit.

@MaskingForIt precisely. And then want it both ways - to be the lower earner and also not the primary caregiver?!!

The lower earner should be the main caregiver or else what ARE they doing?

As to why women are lower earners than men, honestly it's not just workplace discrimination that contributes to that - again women have to own some of the career choices they make too which are often for jobs and industries that pay less.

This could be solved is more women were willing to date low-earning men. Oddly enough, they don’t seem to want to.

That’s interesting. Where does this idea come from, that women should date up rather than down in terms of wages? One old friend did use to say that she couldn’t respect a man who earned less and I thought this extremely odd. And unfair.

Personally, I’ve always been willing to date low-earning men, but with one partner it did cause feelings of inadequacy for him and subsequently problems for our relationship.

women have to own some of the career choices they make too which are often for jobs and industries that pay less.

Too many women just want a little job to keep them busy until the big man comes along and impregnates them. Then they willingly give up work to be a SAHM. Then 10 years later they go back to work and wonder why all the domestics fall to them.

If we don’t advocate for ourselves, no-one else is going to do it for us.

That’s interesting. Where does this idea come from, that women should date up rather than down in terms of wages? One old friend did use to say that she couldn’t respect a man who earned less and I thought this extremely odd. And unfair.

Because they need a provider. Pretty obvious really.

The lower earner should be the main caregiver or else what ARE they doing?

Being a lower earner doesn’t mean that you are working fewer hours though, so the answer is that they are working.

again women have to own some of the career choices they make too which are often for jobs and industries that pay less.

In your opinion why do more women than men make those career choices?

Do women WANT to not be the default parent, though? As a class no, I don't think we do. Equality in the workplace will only come when there's equality in childrearing, and so many women - not just their partners - are unwilling to be equal parents.

The gender pay gap doesn't open until after women have children. Women don't sacrifice their careers because their partners earn so much more, but because they want to be at home with their children more. We can't have both.