To think that women are the ones whose careers will suffer during lockdown

[RomeoLikedCapuletGirls]

So many of the working mothers I know, despite being with husbands, are the ones who seem to now be left to struggle with the problem of how to do childcare whilst WFH.

One of my friends works full-time as does her DH and whilst her DH has his own room to work in she is struggling to look after the kids and work remotely too. She does such a good job but is exhausted.

I know the reason is that he earns loads more than her, but isn’t this the issue in the first place? Men earn more (why though? Ambition, childcare, expectations, age?) so women will be the default child-carers. They also seem to be doing more of the homeschooling.

I know biology in the early years also plays a part, but it’s incredibly frustrating how precarious women’s new place in the working world is and how men’s jobs are usually more important.

@DedlyMedally absolutely it's about women prioritising, but these choices aren't made in a vacuum. If things are going to change we have to think about why women's and men's priorities are different. Plus the men have to want to change too. Individual women would likely say they are happy with the choices theyve made (because it's in their interest to do so of course!) but looking at women as a whole, they absolutely will suffer career wise due to Covid.

It's not just childcare either there's a wider caring issue. Even when children are older many women take on responsibilities for elderly parents and you don't have to be a mother yourself to be in that situation.

For those that are mothers it can be the case that just as the children are old enough to think about return to work or career acceleration then these other responsibilities come to the fore.

I know a number of men do take on responsibility for aging parents too but generally like childcare it falls disproportionately to women if there's a woman in the family to do it.

I think there are a number of factors at play.

• society has traditionally seen child rearing as the woman's job. This is changing now with the introduction of shared parental leave, but it's not an overnight change rather it's more gradual. More employers need to champion this.

• too many women do not have honest conversations with their partners about their expectations BEFORE they have children - for childcare and domestic arrangements and also the need for shared finances to cover the increased costs of having a family INCLUDING child care fees. So one parent trots back to work after 2 weeks parental leave and life goes on as normal for them, while one parent stays at home and juggles all the domestic work/child rearing and ends up stressed out their mind.

• not all jobs allow women to return to work due to pay levels. You'd have to look back to social and demographic influences at the time these women were at school to understand why they may have chosen lower paid jobs/careers. This is one of my worries about the pandemic, how do we make sure that today's generation are sufficiently inspired and educated?

• there's also a myth that you can't be a good mother if you work full time. Personally I think this is BS - I have 3 kids and work full time as does DH. I am lucky enough to have a job that lets me flex my hours around the children and I made it very clear to DH that he would be pulling his weight from day 1. He's still a messy sod at times but he does prioritise the children, their health and education so I don't mind rolling my eyes at the pants that live beside the laundry basket every few days. We arranged our childcare so that our children have always spent more time with their parents than in formal childcare - early start for one of us and later finish for the other. It works for our family.

@BlairWaldorfLovesShopping
"Plus the men have to want to change too. "
I think that's the crux of what I was getting at. I don't think they do want to change. I think women want to have and spend time with kids more than men do so they are willing to make bigger sacrifices in order to do it.
Convincing men that they should desire what women seem to desire without much prodding is going to be quite a task.

Disagree

As a woman you have to constantly stand up for yourself in work and at home

Fight for what you believe and is far and equal

Never become a victim or martyr around male/ female stuffas who suffers- ultimately you're causing yourself harm

@MaskingForIt

This could be solved is more women were willing to date low-earning men. Oddly enough, they don’t seem to want to.

The all too common resentment from the lower earning male partner just isn't worth it IMO.

The trouble is not everyone is cut out to be one of these higher earners. I am retraining in a lower paid health role which I am good at it but I would be rubbish at a higher paid career such as engineering or a managerial role. I do own my career decisions but there are societal/ biological constraints.
Dd wants to be a lawyer but she is also super maternal. It will be interesting to see how she balances both in the future.

I wonder how many women would be prepared to swap maternity leave with men. Most women hate going back to work once maternity leave finishes. We can't have it all ways. Usually the man is the main earner, and doesn't dip in and out of work. If he gave up work to let his partner go back, many would struggle to pay the mortgage.

I keep seeing this idea of career women marrying lower earning men being posted. Perhaps things have changed in recent years but IME lower earning men typically behave like most other men and still consider their jobs to be important and the centre of everything.

When my children were small I had a friend who earned twice what her DH did. He was a mechanic and cars were his passion so I don't think the idea that his job was 'less important' ever crossed his mind. In addition to that there was zero culture in the motor trade around child care and flexible working.

I ended up being a named person at the nursery and doing last minute pick ups for her when she rang me in desperation because she was stuck in motorway traffic.

[quote tootsytoo]@honeylulu you are correct I agree.

Women don't earn what men do for a variety of reasons which I won't go into, I know many friends who decide to have kids as a way OUT of work because they hate their jobs and want a rest. Sorry, but I honestly think many women bring on many of their own problems.

Aware this isn't a popular view on mumsnet but still my opinion.[/quote]
I wonder if this is to do with the balance of household tasks before childcare becomes an issue though?

One study found that on average working women do an additional 45m housework (not sure if this is pre or post kids).

So a woman who is more inclined/socialised to do more in the house sees less of an incentive to return to work.

(this doesn't explain me though, because I would happily ditch work to be a parent in spite of outsourcing as much as possible in our house...)

I think the reasons women end up as the low earners looking after childcare is that

• too many jobs seem to "only" be for men OR women
• roles that tend to attract women are often poorly paid
• male dominated roles tend to be sexist, inflexible and not family friendly
• women find it harder to negotiate a good salary than men when a post doesn't say the salary range on the job description
• Childcare/elder care is took expensive
• it's often not wise to cut back on the higher earner role if you still want somewhere to live and not end up on the streets

I haven't RTFT but will nonetheless attempt to sum up/predict the counter-argument on here:

"NO the patriarchy doesn't exist because [anecdata] and even if it does it's women's fault for being doormats and also because they are hardwired to stay at home and cuddle babies."

*Another big issue is that many women don't realise just how sexist society is until they have children.

I deliver a lecture on this topic every year and I generally have a mix of ages. Those without children are often incredulous when we start to discuss these issues and think we are exaggerating*

I would love to hear this, any referrences ?
My first pregnacy was unplanned and we were quite a bit younger than our contemporaries. Because of these 2 factors we have always needed both salaries to pay the mortage. Later DH had a period as a SAHD. We now both work FT. I would say it is as even as it could have been. But by god it has felt like swimming against the tide an awful lot of the time and yes if I am honest I still probrably did more in the last lockdown.

I think part of the problem is that women prioritise their husbands work over their own. I think society has taught them to do that but I also think that if you want your husband to share the workload then you should damn well make him. Not do it all yourself, make sure he can work in peace, further his career, get time for his hobbies, then complain.

"You can have the morning in the office and I'll work downstairs with the kids, lunch together then swap." When he says "I need to work in peace" say "yeah me too, but we have kids to look after so let's both compromise and work as a team."

I don't disagree with the OP as a general rule,but no way would I ever let this happen in my house