To think that women are the ones whose careers will suffer during lockdown

[RomeoLikedCapuletGirls]

So many of the working mothers I know, despite being with husbands, are the ones who seem to now be left to struggle with the problem of how to do childcare whilst WFH.

One of my friends works full-time as does her DH and whilst her DH has his own room to work in she is struggling to look after the kids and work remotely too. She does such a good job but is exhausted.

I know the reason is that he earns loads more than her, but isn’t this the issue in the first place? Men earn more (why though? Ambition, childcare, expectations, age?) so women will be the default child-carers. They also seem to be doing more of the homeschooling.

I know biology in the early years also plays a part, but it’s incredibly frustrating how precarious women’s new place in the working world is and how men’s jobs are usually more important.

@SueEllenMishke

Another big issue is that many women don't realise just how sexist society is until they have children.

I deliver a lecture on this topic every year and I generally have a mix of ages. Those without children are often incredulous when we start to discuss these issues and think we are exaggerating.

Yep

But how many women would actually agree to share parental leave with their partners?

Well, I did. Twice. As did 60+% of my first NCT group - most of the dads took a couple of months of SPL when the mum went back to work. But see my post above re: biologically deficient female. It's a miracle my uterus worked at all really.

@lannieduck
If the man took the last 3 months of parental leave at the end of the woman's mat leave, I think things would be much better.

With the entitlement to a year of leave but only 9 months of it being paid, most people can’t afford for the man to take the last 3 months unpaid. It takes two sympathies employers and the use of plenty of annual leave to cover a full year and not be at serious financial loss.

But see my post above re: biologically deficient female

Your not. You just knew you had choices. Your not a deficient female if you go back to work.

@dameofdilemma

These thread are interesting as there's always a flood of posters telling us how very equally shared their parenting is.

But the stats show that the vast majority of SAHPs, part-time workers and single parents - are women.

So either the vast majority of mothers are as weak as some posters suggest or (more likely) there are wider societal and economic factors at play (not to mention workplace discrimination and the gender pay gap) that drive (assertive, confidant, capable) women into lower paid or part time employment.

Its a rather Thatcherite/1980s view that if women were just a bit more ballsy all would be ok.

Couldn’t agree more. I’m as ballsy as they come with a high flying career history but have still ended up the lower earning main parent - not something I wanted or foresaw.

There are many many factors that push women into this position, not just a failure to insist that their DP takes an equal role. I could bore you with how it happened to me, but no doubt the “you just have to insist” crowd would still tell me I should have been stronger.

I earn way more than my DP (like 2.5 times) and so do most of the women I know who didn't have kids.

Your earning potential is affected by the choices you make as a couple around the childbearing years.

Absolutely.
Though from the threads on this site, it seems that there is a majority of women demanding to be locked down for longer. Quite extraordinary.
Women's rights are at a crossroads now it seems and unfortunately we seem to be going backwards and helping that journey.

Of course you’re right. It’s been well-documented. You’ll always get people who can’t accept it or if they do accept it want to make it the fault of individual women, though, rather than looking at the context in which women make their choices.

Another even more concerning side-effect of the lockdown on females is how much more vulnerable women and girls become to physical abuse and sexual exploitation.

It is up to every couple to decide their domestic arrangements including who takes on childcare duties. Women can make choices , including what type of man they marry, career decisions and domestic priorities.

Get the high earning male to quit his job then and do the childcare then live off your low wage. Loads of men would love their wife to earn more. Crikey I know mine would!

I’m the higher earner in my household. My husband definitely doesn’t want me to go part time or earn any less. He absolutely doesn’t want to shoulder the burden of being the sole wage earner.

Unfortunately he also doesn’t want to shoulder the burden of childcare or life admin or housework. Because it’s women’s work. I often think my husband has benefitted massively from feminism. 50 years ago he would have had to provide for us.

And the expectations on me at work are far more onerous than a man in an equivalent role. I see it all the time - women are required to be engaged and to prove their commitment 24/7. Men can swan in and out - it’s just assumed they’re committed.

I am rambling but my point is this. It’s not insightful to say ‘women choose to step back from the workplace so it’s women’s fault they earn less!’ We have to look at the context in which women make their choices. If women are pressed at home because their male partners won’t step up, and pressed at work because their male colleagues discriminate against them, and paying a huge amount for childcare for the privilege of being in this position, then unsurprisingly something has to give. And it’s usually the woman’s career.

YABU.
You're conflating women with mothers. I don't think many women choose to have children are are then blindsided by the fact that their career will have to be on the backburner to raise them. Women, in general, seem to care more about being mother's than men do about being fathers.

No one has mentioned single parents trying to co-parent
I’ve been putting my career after child care for years, finally got into a position where I could re train for a better position and COVID hits
ExH works 9-5 and during the last lock down had our 2 DC one day a fortnight, one!!! Then had the audacity to complain when I asked him to take a week a/l so I could have a break
He’s job always seems to come first because he earns more. He’s unfortunately also incapable of WFH and looking after 2DC. Can’t even clean up after making a cup of coffee
It’s fucking frustrating that a woman’s career needs come second and more so right now

@DedlyMedally

YABU. You're conflating women with mothers. I don't think many women choose to have children are are then blindsided by the fact that their career will have to be on the backburner to raise them. Women, in general, seem to care more about being mother's than men do about being fathers.

Women and mothers can be conflated in this case (though ofc not all women are mothers) because the reason that women in general take lower paid, lower "status" jobs compared to their male partners is inextricably linked to their childbearing status. Society assumes (as you have done in your third sentence) that women want to prioritise children over careers, so more women than men go for these lower paid jobs. This harms women who do and don't have children, for instance when an employer assumes that a woman of childbearing age might take leave to have a baby even if she does not intend to.

YANBU
But until women stop settling for this shit from their partners nothing will change.
The problem is parents look at outsourcing the care of their children, so when that is gone neither one wants to do it, or the mother will take time out due to the man having the higher wage.
Perhaps if both worked pt or fewer hours and shared the care of their children, things might improve.

@BlairWaldorfLovesShopping
The topic isn't really about assumptions though. It's about relationships in which female parents take a step back from their career to do more for their kids than their male parents.
This is absolutely women prioritising.
They could choose not to have kids or find a partner who prioritises time with children over a career and would be content to be a stay at home parent (as many men seem to have no trouble doing).

But until women stop settling for this shit from their partners nothing will change.

It's a much more complex issue than this.

I know the reason is that he earns loads more than her, but isn’t this the issue in the first place? Men earn more (why though? Ambition, childcare, expectations, age?) so women will be the default child-carers.

Men and women tend to earn about the same - some studies actually show women earning more on average - until around the time they have children.

YABU This is not a “suffering” Olympics. Yes, on average, more women may be struggling with WFH plus childcare so their “career” suffers more than men, but men are twice as likely to die of Covid than women, and isn’t life more important than any career? So there is more than enough death and suffering to go around without trying to discuss who is the biggest victim of all.

Btw,
I know biology in the early years also plays a part is a complete and utter myth. Breastfed all mine (pumped at work) and had them in nursery full time from age 10-11 weeks old while I returned to full time work. Each child = 12 weeks off work which is no more than the average commonly handled absence due to surgery or a car accident. There is absolutely NO BIOLOGICAL reason for a woman with a normal pregnancy and healthy child to need to be off for “years” due to childbirth.

@Buddytheelf85 I simply could not stay married to a man with that view.

The title of this article says it all really. There are always exceptions in every trend, but that doesn't nullify the trends.

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/12/womens-research-plummets-during-lockdown-but-articles-from-men-increase

My DH told me before Christmas that he actually does a lot in the house. I asked him "Compared to who?"
He replied, "In comparison to what my father did when I was a kid. In comparison to what I see my friends and colleagues doing."

I pointed out that a) his father is a pretty crap benchmark to have (he agreed!) and b) he's only comparing to male colleagues. It hadn't occurred to him to compare what he does with the kids and home with what I do.

I'm sure he's not alone in that.

Totally agree, I was listening to a segment on the radio here(Ireland) and they were talking about childcare for key workers specifically health care workers and twice they made the point that "most of these workers are women" and I'm thinking but don't their children have fathers? No one thinks of the fathers taking any responsibility for looking after their own children

Most of the women I know are very happy to take the default parent role. I work for the council (teacher) and when I processed my Shared Parental Leave stuff those in the department had never processed one before. I found that astounding!

In my circle of friends (8) all the women out earn their husbands/ partner. I didn't when I had my dc, but do now. Within my group there has been 2 husbands who have shared parental leave (taking 6 months off at the end of maternity). Another is taking a month off soon to care for their child who is having an operation. Another works compressed hours to look after dc one day a week. I think things are changing and these fathers that I know certainly do 50:50 care/ typical 'wifework', in normal times (not COVID!). My dh does most of the housework, but I tend to do more childcare so it balances out.
I have also found though that the women, myself included have professional flexible jobs (WFH), whereas the men largely work out of the home (engineering mostly) so cannot he done from home. This means at present the women are now juggling work with childcare/ home learning. Luckily all our jobs are fairly secure.

@Buddytheelf85 shared really interesting post^, and I know of women who have similar experiences

Even when some women are career driven, in a high earning role etc - it doesn’t guarantee things will be more equal. Hence, there’s less of an incentive to work as hard in my opinion.

From my experience it seems most high earning men are not attracted to high earning women, and would instead prioritise attractiveness and flexibility of the women (i.e will she accommodate to my lifestyle).
I’m not saying they find high earning women unattractive but rather it’s less of a desirable trait than it is for women to have a high earning partner

I know of a few high earning women who significantly out earn their partners, but are still taking on a lot of the household work and childcare burden. Also, because their partners are not high earners too, their joint income will be similar if not less (because statistically their male counterparts from work will still out earn them) than stereotypical households with male breadwinner - I can’t help but think the women in low paid roles are getting a better ‘deal’ if you will, because at least they don’t have the stress of a high earning role on top.

If women who have higher-earning partners have to give up or compromise one career, it's their choice if they want the lifestyle offered by keeping the higher-earning career instead of furthering their own. I am not saying it's an invalid choice, but it's a choice.