Nhs worker friend refusing vaccine - future children

[Trying2611]

I feel like I am NBU but talking to my friend today who’s the same age as me 25, she works in a front facing NHS role and will soon be offered the vaccine, however she is saying she is going to refuse on the grounds that it may make her infertile not sure where she has heard this?

I said oh well you should think about getting pregnant now before your vaccine (joking ofcourse) and she said very angrily why do you think this is a joke it’s serious do you not care if you can’t have kids then she stormed off and won’t answer my calls AIBU or was she being ridiculous

There does seem to be reasonably good evidence that the disease itself actually can cause infertility in some cases. So that needs to be taken into account. This is not going to happen to everyone who gets it, any more than everyone who gets it will die or get "long covid", but it should be given some consideration when deciding whether or not to be inoculated. Also, not all the vaccines work in the same way and so not all will have the same possible side-effects.

The vaccines are all new because the disease is new, and there has not been more than twelve months of study of any of it because you can't study something that doesn't exist. Unfortunately waiting for the same amount of study as has been made into other vaccines would entail self-isolating for seven or eight years just to be sure....

Thalidomide is a pointless analogy, because before it was ever sold specifically for anxiety, trouble sleeping, "tension", and (tragically) morning sickness, and as a panacea for a whole raft of other problems, it was developed as a treatment for cancer and the drug was put on the market without ever having been properly tested; Grunenthal and Distillers were later found in court not to have met even the basic testing requirements of the 1950s. So it's not much of a parallel, and one about which a spokesman for the Thalidomide Society has been quoted as saying it's "a bit insulting that suddenly Thalidomide gets remembered after all these years when it suits anti-vaxxers to have something to compare to".

There are two different issues under discussion here.

The first is that the vaccine could make you infertile. This is complete fictitious nonsense that derives from comments made by Michael Yeadon. He has had fringe views throughout the pandemic and has been pretty much slammed by the entire scientific community for his irresponsible attitude and remarks. He has made numerous inaccurate comments about the vaccines and COVID more generally. As others have pointed out, there is barely any similarity between the spike protein and syncytin-1 protein. This is a non-issue and falls under antivax conspiracy nonsense.

As an aside, if antibodies to the spike protein could induce fertility issues. Then so would natural infection with COVID. This most certainly hasn’t been observed or reported.

The second issue is vaccinating pregnant women. This is always a contentious issue, after the thalidomide scandal. Use of any new medicine in pregnant women commonly comes after the general population following review of data retrospectively. Eg some people don’t know they are pregnant when they have the vaccine. In reality, there is no particular area of concern, and high risk pregnant can now have the vaccines after consultation with their doctor. But it won’t be offered generally until there is more data from the wider population.

@Trying2611

Hi all thanks for you replies I do feel really bad now and have text her apologising I really didn't think about it like this! No i do not have kids myself but did not consider the vaccine to have side effects such as infertility - I will definitely be doing my own research now before considering having the vaccine and will be thinking before I make stupid jokes in the future x

That's kind, op. We all say tactless things at times, without thinking. It's unusual for people to apologise, good on you. x

I’m very pro vaccination. The only one I have ever missed was when I was pregnant during swine flu. I didn’t think the vaccine had been adequately tested in pregnancy so I decided not to have. I actually think you friend is succeeding at the intelligent test of life. If she get fertility problems in future she will always worry it was from this vaccine.

The thing is, we can't possibly know if the vaccine affects fertility, as it hasn't been in existence long enough to research that! I'm not saying I think it's likely, or that it will, just that we don't know with absolute certainty.

Your friend probably (rightly) feels she's already made a huge number of sacrifices over the last 9 months, above and beyond what was expected of her when she signed up for her career working on the front line of the NHS. Risking her ability to have children must feel like the last straw, if having a family one day is important to her.

@Trying2611 I think you were insensitive. The risk to fertility may feel low or trivial to you, but it's clearly not to her. It's definitely more than zero, and she's entitled to feel upset about that.

I love how those who choose to believe something simply because it is said to them

But... that's you, isn't it?

Everyone who has deep-seated emotional fears that "the protein spike is the same and will cause infertility" is choosing to believe something simply because it has been said to them.

Everyone who isn't a scientist with better understanding, is in the same position of hearing things said to us.

It's at this point that we apply additional information, like looking at who is doing the "saying".

In this case of this thread, it's an anonymous internet sprite saying, that her friend is saying, something that she doesn't know who the friend heard saying.

So I'm not going to rank that terribly highly. I'll wait to hear it from some source I rank more highly. (At the moment those are all saying this protein spike idea is extremely unlikely to be true.)

You can’t take the vaccine back if doctors realise it cases infertility of causes problems to the baby.

I’m nhs staff happily having the vaccine but I’m 41, healthy and not having children. I’ve confidence in its safety. However I can completely understand those of that young age that do are concerned as it’s an unknown.

PerkingFaintly
So I'm not going to rank that terribly highly. I'll wait to hear it from some source I rank more highly. (At the moment those are all saying this protein spike idea is extremely unlikely to be true.)

Or relevant, really. To anything much. Or so I would suspect.

www.leedsfertilityclinic.co.uk/news/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine/

Make of this what you want

PaddyF0dder
Life is an intelligence test, and I guess not all of us pass it.

This /

Your comment made me chuckle PaddyF0dder. That's going to be my new motto!!

I know a nurse who is declining the vaccine because she hasn't had a day off in five years and Covid won't stop her going in. She also refused tests but I think it may be compulsary for NHS staff now. I don't understand that logic but I'm all for people refusing the vacination.

I was a bit concerned about this too but there has been some suggestions that coronavirus itself has the potential to cause infertility (I think the cases I have read about where in men but still a worry!). So I would rather have the vaccine than risk covid which is completely uncontrollable and unpredictable in terms of its effects. This is a very personal decision though and I think everyone had to do what they feel is right for themselves.

Interestingly in our trust every Dr I know has had the vaccine while lots of the nursing and admin staff have declined or 'are thinking about it' including a number at high risk.
We are also admitting quite a few sick pregnant women - more than I remember last time. So maybe better to get the vaccine now before becoming pregnant as some of those pregnancies (and mothers) are in trouble

@Quail15

I'm frontline NHS and 24 weeks pregnant. We have been told not to get the vaccine if we are pregnant or trying to conceive as there haven't been any studies in this area yet. They can't yet say if the vaccine will cause any complications. I'm sure further studies will show that the vaccine is fine but until then the advice is not to have it yet.

The advice is not to have it if you are pregnant or planning to get pregnant within the next 3 months, because as you say the lack of evidence (there is no reason to think it WOULD be harmful, but they are being very cautious).

But there is nothing about any effect on fertility.

I think someone has seriously misinterpreted this and it has been spread around online. Misinformation is a bigger virus than Covid!

You also have to weight it up with the alternative of not having the vaccine and potentially catching Covid - which we also know very little about.

I find it silly when people say they are worried because there is so much unknown and it is a new vaccine etc.... because all of that also applies to the virus!

Sorry, havent RTFT, but according to the Times today, almost 60% of France is likely to refuse the vaccine, despite over 65,000 deaths. At least 77% of the UK plan to accept it as soon as it's offered.

I'm quite interested in how this particular Covid rumour was started though.

The false rumour of "there is no virus, it's the effects of 5G" has obvious origins. The new threat of the virus just attached itself to pre-existing fears and conspiracy theories about 5G. The 5G conspiracies don't trouble themselves with anything so complicated as a plausible mechanism. So this rumour is simple, easy to spread, and may even be naturally arising among 5G conspiracists.

The "protein spike" rumour is none of those things. It is detailed enough that it can only have been started by someone with sufficient knowledge of the Covid virus's structure and of the structure of syncytin-1. Normally anyone with sufficient knowledge of those structures to notice a short part of the sequence is the same, would also see the rest of sequence is different – and also know the difference makes a mis-identification unlikely.

So I'd say this rumour has been very deliberately and maliciously started, and by an actor who has enough knowledge to insert a very minor true element as the hook, while also knowing that the overall story they're telling is untrue.

And as one of the Cambridge Analytica folk got caught on camera saying, once you've pushed a piece of misinformation out into the bloodstream of the internet, people don't know where it's come from and it just spreads.

There is NO uncertainty since they've been studying this vaccine for multiple decades. It's more like irrational fear over nothing.

Regardless of it being misinformation, if someone makes the choice not to have the vaccine that is their decision. If you want to have it yourself that is great, but it cannot be forced upon someone.

@Trying2611

Upon reading my post I do feel abit guilty now because it's clearly something she has anxiety about, I maybe shouldn't have made the joke, but I feel like with her Job she can't be allowed to put others at risk

Yes, it is clear that she is anxious.

Whether or no she is right to be concerned is a contentious matter. According to Professor Chris Whitty there is 'no evidence' that the vaccine does cause infertility but some people are wondering if this means that there is evidence that it doesn't? Absence of evidence does not automatically mean no evidence and this is a brand new vaccine which is being given to everyone.

Some people are uncomfortable about the speed that these vaccines have been declared safe for use on the population because historically vaccines have been tested over a much longer time period before being passed as safe. Of course we know that this particular set of vaccines have been developed by a number of organisations worldwide so it is entirely possible that this is the main reason for the speedy progress.

The fact is, your friend is extremely worried about the prospect of never being able to conceive. This is why she reacted so negatively to your flippant comment. I am certain you can have another chat with her and maybe reassure her that her fears, though understandable, are probably groundless.

Quote from a previous post "sperm from the vaccine."

What on earth does this mean? How can vaccine produce sperm - with or without RNA?

It's unknown whether there is any risk to furture fertility. I know you said you've apologised, but it might be helpful if you fact check instead of just thinking other people are stupid!

@Oly4

Actually the JCVI and MHRA have said pregnant women could have the vaccine and to talk to their GP. It is not an unknown vaccine, there is not a lot of uncertainty. The vast majority of medicines are not tested on pregnant women, this is no different. Your friend is entitled to do what she wants but collectively I think we should be getting as many people as possible to have the vaccine to end this pandemic

I got a leaflet from Public Health Scotland and this is what it says in bold on page 8 (quote )...

"The vaccines are not recommended for women who are pregnant or planning a pregnancy as they have not been tested on pregnant women. Pregnancy should also be avoided for at least two months after the second dose of the vaccine."

It then goes on to say this " If you are breastfeeding, you should wait until you have finished breastfeeding to have the vaccine".

So, make of that what you will, but it seems clear that there is uncertainty about giving to vaccine to pregnant or wanting-to-conceive women. This is probably why OPs friend is reluctant. Makes sense (in Scotland, anyway).

I find it silly when people say they are worried because there is so much unknown and it is a new vaccine etc.... because all of that also applies to the virus!

A virus that most people will survive opposed to who knows what?