How does the Irish middle class compare to ours

[Norfolker]

My sister in law is from the Republic & she says the class system in Ireland is there but less obvious than ours.. Not as many private schools but more subtle markers.
She also thinks their state education system is far superior so private schooling is unnecessary. Any Irish on here want to elaborate? I found it interesting.
YABU there is no difference between UK & ROI. Exact same class system no difference in markets.
YANBU different traits contribute to the Irish middle class system

@LadyfromtheBelleEpoque

I like the daily edge piece too. Will have to start following them.

I can’t work out the Irish humour. I always feel I am being told off or shouted down or that I am being argued with just because I am English then people say it’s humour yet if I do it back there is rage and fury.

I think it is definitely that thing of not taking yourself seriously whereas in the UK I always feel I have to work hard to be taken seriously. The people I prob clicked with most were NI Protestants I met at college but that tended to change once they found out I was RC!

Where did you go to college? I'm amazed at Northern Protestants who are at college taking against an English Catholic once they discover their religion. The insular won't-be-friends-with-a-Catholic type are generally not at college. They are either the people who have lived a tough life and are afraid to explore beyond their small local area where they feel safe, or else they are the ultra religious types who mostly won't be at college either.

@HollyCarrot, at DS's ET school, it's up to parents who want their child to have religious instruction to arrange classes the school will provide them with a room after school hours, cover insurance etc, but because it's not part of school provision, parents have to organise it. So I know because one of the children is DS's friend -- that the parents in DS's class who wanted their children to make their first communion organised after-school instruction to prepare them. If any other faith wanted to do similar, the school would likewise offer a room. There are Hindu and Muslim kids in his class, too, but from what I understand, their religious education takes place centrally at the temple/mosque, so they don't need school input.

@caperplips

Can't your sister in law explain all of these things *@Norfolker*? I'm not entirely sure of the actual purpose of this thread anymore. Or indeed from the very start

My sil thinks nothing compares to the Irish language schools so I don't think she can speak for all the parents in Ireland I asked on here for other opinions

It's amusing that an English person would come on and say that they A. identified with NI Protestants and B. that we make everything 'so fucking difficult' and C. tell us that colonialism was expansion and progression and expect to be welcomed somehow! Extraordinary arrogance and ignorance. Extraordinary to see it in real life.

@Hatstrategicallydipped

Not on my part, Hat I can assure you. You have made so many assumptions there.

And finally, and as clearly as I can possibly say it, at no point did I say or indicate that I personally thought expansion and progress were valid reasons.

I didn't choose an Irish school for dc as I was more interested in location, class sizes and how inclusive they were of different races.
I wouldn't peg one above the other.

Ah, thanks. As far as I remember we just got an email asking if our kid would be making communion and that classes could be arranged. I assumed by the school bit maybe not. I didn't pay much attention as mine was going to be doing it.

Are the Irish schools all Catholic? My brother's children have had communion & we have been sent photos of them dressed for nativity plays over the years

Are the Irish schools all Catholic?

No. There are schools of other denominations and non religious schools too.

In the main, Irish schools have a Catholic ethos. Hence the new rising of Educate Together schools to cater for immigrants and indeed Catholics who categorically do not want their children having a religious upbringing. It's a type of ethos which has grown organically and as a need became apparent.

TBH, you can't beat a nativity though, so I'd send mine to Catholic schools again just to get to whinge at them on-stage lol. I am that superficial

Deliberately avoiding the history debate except to say this: I was educated partly in the UK and partly in Ireland and studied history in both. It was an early lesson in the subjectivity of the topic. And the ability of people in the UK to ignore the less savoury portions of their history.

Small point regarding the Educate Together schools. They’re not non-denominational as such. They were originally described as multi-denominational and now engage in what is as described as an ethical curriculum where they teach about all religions, but not that one is superior to the others as a belief system which is the same way they taught when I went to one in the ‘80s.

@SkylightAndChandelier

Can someone please explain what transition year is please. Also the education together primary schools. Are these fee paying? How do education together compare to the Irish speaking schools? Are they as desirable & as good academically as the Irish language schools?

No, not fee paying - although you pay for schoolbooks and normally make a yearly contribution (I pay about 400/year contribution, and about 200/year in schoolbooks).

The one thing my relative said when she heard we were moving here (she was a primary school teacher in Ireland before she retired) was not to send them to an educate together - they don't have a great reputation, although I don't really know why. There are tales of 'Winterval' rather than Christmas etc. which I don't think are true, my feeling it that they just don't do the religious stuff like confirmation that the catholic ones do (my friends tell me even the non-catholic kids get involved with confirmation at their catholic schools).

The Irish medium schools are another thing all together - I'm afraid I don't know if there are Irish medium Educate Together schools.

IMO, the only people who think that ET schools are somehow lesser the other types of school are either:

(a) very traditional types who think all kids should have the exact same school experience that they had (i.e, in a catholic school, possibly single sex) because "it never did them any harm", or

(b) racist bigots who don't want their kids sharing a classroom with kids of other colours and religions, because ET schools tend to be more diverse than the catholic schools in the same town. (Rural catholic schools can be as diverse as ET schools because everyone goes there; but when there's a choice between ET schools and regular catholic schools, the ET tends to be more diverse).

Really, all the schools are great. ET schools and multi-denominational gaelscoileanna are for people who oppose or just don't care about religion being taught in schools. Catholic schools (regular national schools or gaelscoileanna) are for people who want or don't mind Catholicism in all aspects of the school day.

Some catholic schools are pretty secular in reality, lip service only to religion, but you need local knowledge to know that.

God forgive me for swearing but one of my dc goes to a Church of Ireland secondary school. I'm ashamed of myself. I will go to confession on Saturday.

Religion really isn't too much of a big deal in Ireland - maybe because most of us have the same religion I guess, but in day to day life? Nobody really goes to Mass or otherwise.

[quote LadyfromtheBelleEpoque]@Hatstrategicallydipped

Not on my part, Hat I can assure you. You have made so many assumptions there.

And finally, and as clearly as I can possibly say it, at no point did I say or indicate that I personally thought expansion and progress were valid reasons.[/quote]
But given that you say you are continually 'being told off or shouted down' by Irish people, wouldn't you say that it's highly unlikely to be other people perpetually misinterpreting you, and hence you might want to look at how you come across, in person as well as online?

[quote LadyfromtheBelleEpoque]@caperplips

It was directed at the people who were responding a certain way to my posts.

@Apileofballyhoo

Which I am sure you are well aware of.

I’m sorry @Pile but I don’t quite understory post.[/quote]
I'm not sure I understand yours! Seemed to me you were explaining that some British people have no knowledge of British history as it relates to Ireland, some British people have a knowledge of same but don't talk about it, and some British people have a knowledge but don't think there is anything wrong with that history. None of which apply to you. Some posters seemed to take it that you were in the last group, I was saying you didn't say that. I don't think you're wrong either, judging by the ignorance I've seen regarding Ireland and Irish/British history. I sometimes can't be bothered punctuating for shortish posts, sorry if it threw you.

@SunniCameHomeWithAVengeance

You wouldn't want to be getting notions.

You called, Sunni?!

Returning to the OP....

I agree with your friend that the Irish school system is better than the English school system. I have extensive experience of both systems, as a parent and from a professional perspective, and - while there are individual gems of schools in England that would be considered great in any country - there are large differences at a systemic level. In brief, relative to Ireland, the English school system has an age-inappropriate national curriculum that leaves a large proportion of children behind, too much focus on testing that is tied to school and teacher reward and causes enormous stress in children, rigid age-cohort admissions rules that enormously disadvantage summer-born children, and an unfortunate cultural relic that means more than half young people still leave formal schooling at 16.

Gaelscoileanna are great if you're keen on the Irish language and believe it's a valuable cultural endeavour to increase the number of Irish speakers after years of enforced and then neglected decline. I would have sent my kids to one of my oldest hadn't been too old to start when we moved back from the UK. They're not academically better than other schools apart from the Irish-language teaching, though.

@IceIceBebe

It wasn't the UK that tried to eradicate the Irish language

It was.

Stop saying 'the UK' when you mean 'England.' Not that I want to english-bash either but how could the Welsh possibly be accused of collaborating in eradicating the Irish language when our own language was subject to at least the same amount of systematic eradication if not more - read about the 'welsh not' for example.

And as for @Hatstrategicallydipped's trolling about how the British lack culture.... "Britain" has 2000 years of culture at least as a collective, but by additionally denying Scots/Welsh specific culture (traditions, language, customs, folk tales, dances, songs, poems) aren't you doing exactly the same thing you complain that people are ignorant about Irish culture?

Where did Hat say that Britain lacked culture?? Been reading the thread, and went back and looked, but can't find it.

@Apileofballyhoo

Yes, that is pretty much it.

It is based on my experience growing up there and from teaching. The UK educational system in general (let alone the English) is so varied.

And as for @Hatstrategicallydipped's trolling about how the British lack culture.... hmm "Britain" has 2000 years of culture at least as a collective, but by additionally denying Scots/Welsh specific culture (traditions, language, customs, folk tales, dances, songs, poems) aren't you doing exactly the same thing you complain that people are ignorant about Irish culture?

I'm not trolling. Is that your defence to anything disagreeable to you?

Unfortunately, I do in my head align all of Great Britain as they never stood up and were counted when atrocities were committed in Ireland. Maybe you were not the perpetrators, but you certainly never intervened. You still align yourself with England and your so call 'United' Kingdom, so yes, you're all cut from the same cloth as regards how I feel about you.

@MarDhea

Where did Hat say that Britain lacked culture?? Been reading the thread, and went back and looked, but can't find it.

I did say it.

My attempt at humour has fallen flat. Of course I know the history of the suppression of the Irish language. One of the saddest things I think happened was having ensured we no longer spoke it in the home it was up to schools to teach. I am old enough to remember Irish being taught in let's just say an overzealous way. I think this approach (in my youth) turned lots and lots of people off the language.

Wales never stood up to the United Kingdom and said 'hang on a minute - give the Irish a break'.
It's like someone who was present at a murder - they may not have committed the actual act, but they were present and complicit.
You could have said 'No'. But you chose not to.

All of 'Great' Britain allowed the Irish to be massacred and decimated.

6 million Jews were murdered. We remember that.

2 million Irish were starved to death. We're supposed to forget this.