“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

rathertalktothecats
Schrodiger's sacrifice. There's a huge sacrifice when it suits and husbands wouldn't be successful without someone at home, but then if anyone questions why things have to presented a sacrifice when many times it's a choice then this is mean and nasty and shows people dont like SAHP.

Got it.

pensivepigeon
At the very top end I would agree with you.

I don't agree that all the men who claim inflexibility are genuinely inflexible. I think they rely on the fact that it's such an accepted idea that men have big jobs that nobody will question it.

I've seen too many dads pissing about at work, sitting around chatting, working late (which seems to mean be at your computer whilst having a chat or browsing your phone with a cup of tea), whilst mums work productively, take half lunches so they can finish early for pick ups etc. I've seen men and women in the same organisation, but only the women are the ones taking their child to the dentist, or taking the day off when the children are unwell. It makes me very cynical.

if anyone questions why things have to presented a sacrifice when many times it's a choice then this is mean and nasty and shows people dont like SAHP.

I'll say it again, sacrifices are a choice!!!!!

And denying an acknowledgment of someone's sacrifice is blatantly suggesting what they present as a selfless act is actually a pretty selfish one. It is purposely pretty judgmental, critical and insulting.

I've seen too many dads pissing about at work, sitting around chatting, working late (which seems to mean be at your computer whilst having a chat or browsing your phone with a cup of tea), whilst mums work productively, take half lunches so they can finish early for pick ups etc. I've seen men and women in the same organisation, but only the women are the ones taking their child to the dentist, or taking the day off when the children are unwell. It makes me very cynical.

Not my experience so I can't comment on that. My DH's employment when my D.C. was small required working away and going into work at short notice. It was well paid which we needed as we just had taken on a big mortgage. Since then, and thankfully since I was ill he had taken a much more flexible role but it involved taking a hit in salary. He does more than his fair share around the house. However, I had more expertise with regard to advocating for our D.C. with SEN due to my own particular academic background.

My husband would definitely have been bothered as then he would have had to share the childcare responsibilities and it just wouldn't have worked. There's no way he could have put in the hours required / taken time off for child appointments/sickness at that level to get to where he is now.

Interestingly, when I met dh we were both at a similar level in similar public sector organisations with similar prospects for career enhancement. After I had my second child, at which point I was working part time but still in an equivalent role, my dh moved over to the private sector where obviously the demands on him were much increased. Yes I agreed to it. But yes it required me to 'sacrifice' my career.

pensivepigeon
My DH also travels with work but we are both part time. Many of our friends work in companies that have flexibility, for example one of DH's friends was given flexibility in his time sheet because he had to take their pet to the vets for treatment. Another friend in DH's company was able to visit their elderly parent during their lunch because there were flexible hours.Those companies so seem to value their staff more, which suggests it is possible.

Please don't think for one second I'm doubting that some jobs are genuinely inflexible.

I just question how many men out there get can't and won't the wrong way round, and in turn they (and their partners) perpetuate the idea that working men have no choices, can't possibly do pick ups or drop offs, have to work late, etc.This has bothered me even more since a PP shared that despite flexible working being open to all, men aren't using the opportunity or putting the requests in.
The cynic in me thinks they don't want the challenges of home life and like the idea of passing all household load onto someone else, so claiming inflexibility suits them. The least we can do is have our eyes open and be aware that can't and won't are very different.

@LolaSmiles

However, people also use this argument to shut down conversation calling them out for being unfairly judgmental over other people's decisions There's a huge difference between:

• challenging the idea of claiming SAHP are making huge sacrifices because their poor husbands couldn't manage his job without them (especially when many of these men aren't in jobs that are genuinely incompatible with family life and women in these lines of work do manage)
• making rude and arsey comments about someone's decision to be a SAHP

The second is uncalled for and rude. The former is totally valid.

It's not rubbish, it's simply fact within a climate of inflexible working conditions, inadequate, expensive childcare and a gender pay gap
It is rubbish.
Those factors are very real and I 100% agree with you on them. But women are, largely, making the choice if they SAH. It's a choice in an environment where we've been systematically disadvantaged, but it doesn't do us any favours to say 'oh well, I guess this is what has to be for men to have their careers'
We can't start denying agency when it suits, and it does nobody any favours when those who have freely chosen to stay at home try to pretend they had no choice. The least we can do is shift the focus away from poor men who apparently can't manage their job and family life.

Wouldn't it be more powerful to hear women say:
I'm a SAHP because I want to and it is a totally valid decision.
I'm a SAHP by circumstance because in our area we couldn't find appropriate childcare and my husband's work refused his reasonable requests for flexible working (assuming he did). I'd like to return to work once we find a solution because right now I'm having to give up my career, which I didn't want to do.
I'm a SAHP because my husband wants to prioritise his career and I am happy to be at home as it suits our family.

Or even .... I'd like to be the WOHP and have DP be the SAHP because I believe children thrive better with a SAHP. But DP wouldn't countenance it.

This has bothered me even more since a PP shared that despite flexible working being open to all, men aren't using the opportunity or putting the requests in.
The cynic in me thinks they don't want the challenges of home life and like the idea of passing all household load onto someone else, so claiming inflexibility suits them. The least we can do is have our eyes open and be aware that can't and won't are very different.

I'm not so cynical. It is stressful having to continually put requests in. My DH found it stressful when I was undergoing cancer treatment. I was in tears at one point because I was scared of being left alone and having to call an ambulance. I underwent a lot of the treatment by myself because it is so intensive and takes up a lot of time. You worry a lot about job security. Especially if the salary is essential.

@pensivepigeon

I'm just going to say that having cancer and children with additional needs creates a very specific set of circumstances.

Unfortunately, not as unusual as you might think.

Pretty sure I didn't say it was unusual. At any rate, it's specific.

Or even ....
I'd like to be the WOHP and have DP be the SAHP because I believe children thrive better with a SAHP.
But DP wouldn't countenance it.
Or that as well.

I think the more we talk about the big issues and attitudes and the less we perpetuate the idea that men 'can't' manage a job and family life, the more attitudes will start to change. I know of a few dads who are part time or considering going part time after this year.
It will take time though to challenge very deep rooted assumptions about work and domestic life.

Going to work is a sacrifice of a different kind though, isn’t it? But it’s a sacrifice you are prepared to make for the greater good of the family. Also, it’s a sacrifice that may well come with many benefits - job satisfaction, meeting people, etc etc.

Most SAHPs are sacrificing their potential career-wise, for what they perceive to be the greater good of the family overall; but yet, equally, it can be something they feel highly motivated to to do and it can be a source of great satisfaction as well.

Most choices are multi-faceted, so just let people be. What is the point of inventing statements and trying to foster these onto imaginary SAHMs? Then pedantically struggling to define what is and is not acceptable for SAHMs to claim about THEIR lives. There is no such thing as a typical SAHM, any more than there is a typical woman. People say all kinds of things in relation to their lifestyles or marriages. So what?

At any rate, it's specific

In that case, why are you even commenting because everything is specific? Acknowledging that means you acknowledge you cannot truly judge whether someone else has acted selflessly or sacrificially or not.

pensivepigeon
Sorry to hear about your situation. That sounds rough.

Speaking more generally though, how can it be stressful putting the requests in for men, and yet women routinely do it? There is such a difference on a national level. This is what feels really uncomfortable to me. It's expected that women would be a SAHP to facilitate a man's career, but if you have men and women in the same job then the likelihood is only one of them as a spouse at home, and the other one is probably doing a double shift as she is still carrying the mental load of the house. Men have to apparently work long hours and miss dinnertime and bedtime, but women in the same roles manage. Requesting flexible working is stressful for men, but not stressful for women. Excluding situations with genuine high fliers and those with genuinely inflexible jobs, what is it about men that makes domestic life so incompatible with family and domestic responsibilities?

@pensivepigeon

At any rate, it's specific

In that case, why are you even commenting because everything is specific? Acknowledging that means you acknowledge you cannot truly judge whether someone else has acted selflessly or sacrificially or not.

As before, I'm talking about a general concept and phenomenon. I've made it clear I'm not referring to all SAHPs or any particular individual. I'm not going to go through each poster's individual story and say "yes I mean you" and "no I don't mean you".

I do notice that simply saying it is often not a sacrifice causes a huge amount of offence even among people who claim to agree...

Requesting flexible working is stressful for men, but not stressful for women.

I didn't say that. It is obviously stressful to both men and women. But having one parent being a SAHP can often alleviate some of that stress and is one way some people cope. And which salary do you sacrifice? Often the smallest one and, we'll, you know the rest.

Is anyone else wondering If in these jobs where the men don't get home till 8pm etc if these roles are all filled by men? Assuming there are women in these roles (even more shocking, maybe women with children? 😲) do they also only get home at 8pm? Or are these men making an active choice to stay late when they don't need to? I think for the most part, it is the latter. These men stay late because they want to and because they can not because they have to for their jobs and this is key! For a few months my husband was doing all childcare and school runs and took the opportunity to work late, go for drinks etc. Didn't have to but because I could, I did.

Lola - I do agree that some (many)! men couldn’t hack it at home day after day with kids because they don’t have the mentality or the patience. Also, the kudos of having “the job” is essential to their self-identity.

To be fair, there are women who freely admit they can’t cope at home with kids as well. Fair enough. If it’s not for you, better to be honest about it and do something else, rather than be sat at home depressed. That does the kids no good.

I do think men have ingrained pressures too though - ie. they feel they have failed in life if they’re not financially providing, etc. This deeply-rooted notion can be as guilt-provoking for men, as women feeling they “should” be around for children. Especially, in Middle-Eastern countries such as where DH’s family hail from. They are raised in a certain way and they don’t really consider SAH would be an acceptable option for them. They don’t believe this is something their wives would want from them or respect them for. They believe that their role is to facilitate their children being able to be brought up in their own home and by their own mother. Not saying this is right, just saying that what drives successful men is not always about arrogance or psychopathic tendencies, as some people make out on here. Many men are scared of being perceived as failures by the immediate or wider family and society, or feel they have no choice. I would say DH is like this and it’s very very difficult to deconstruct. But at least he has never given the impression of his role being more important than mine. He doesn’t ever think like that. And any money was always family money anyway, regardless of who earns it. Never any question about that.

Is anyone else wondering If in these jobs where the men don't get home till 8pm etc if these roles are all filled by men? Assuming there are women in these roles (even more shocking, maybe women with children? 😲) do they also only get home at 8pm? Or are these men making an active choice to stay late when they don't need to? I think for the most part, it is the latter. These men stay late because they want to and because they can not because they have to for their jobs and this is key! For a few months my husband was doing all childcare and school runs and took the opportunity to work late, go for drinks etc. Didn't have to but because I could, I did.

Possibly, that is true. In at least some cases. Even with my own DH, who is fab, having to request flexible working when I was undergoing cancer treatment was somewhat of a culture shock. He has in the past expressed that he has battled with a sense of guilt in not pursuing the furthering of his career more. We have family and friends with a similar level of education and experience who have been made directors now and are considerably more comfortable financially. However, he has impressed me more since taking a more flexible role than he did when he was pursuing his career more aggressively and I felt I had to handle advocating for my D.C. with SEN pretty much alone, although he did support me. He genuinely found the subject difficult, however, and it was something my academic background gave me some expertise in.

Lots of people getting their knickers in a twist because they want to defend broad-brush statements, despite having no more evidence of their belief than the opposite.

Fwiw, I worked for several years in a City law firm and as a trainee definitely worked with men who would waste time not working at full throttle all day at work, and then call their spouses to tell them they couldn’t make it home for bathtime, because they had so much work still to do. I also worked for women who spent every other night on the phone to their child and nanny, apologising for not being home to see them before they went to bed and being all strung out about it. The reality was, it was not family friendly regardless, but the men were better able to switch off the guilt and reduce their stress levels by controlling when and how they did their work and when and how they saw their family, rather than trying to rush home and do things they were too stressed to do with a good grace, and feeling guilty when they genuinely couldn’t do them anyway - in other words, they couldn’t be that much more flexible than they were, they could be a tiny bit more flexible and a lot more stressed along with it. For family life, it was a lose-lose situation. I am told the situation is vastly improved now. I don’t actually believe it, in all honesty. I don’t believe these people are dropping their kids off at school in the morning, picking them up at the end of the day, leaving work to collect them when they are sick, etc, I think they are just throwing money at the problem and telling themselves the bits they are outsourcing are unimportant, or it’s of no consequence who does them (whilst invariably outsourcing to a woman, regardless of whether or not they are a spouse).

“Lots of people getting their knickers in a twist because they want to defend broad-brush statements, despite having no more evidence of their belief than the opposite.”

Indeed.

And of course the OP is long gone because she has never actually heard anyone claim the statement in her OP.

Leaving other people to toe themselves in semantic knots because, for reasons only known to them, they desperately need to believe the stereotypes that mainly exist in their own head.

I have observed the men working late when they don't need to phenomenon (and have also been on a residential trip with a male colleague, dad of two young DC, who used to volunteer to accompany a trip every school holiday). Would have loved to hear his wife's POV on that one (she was also a teacher so conveniently available to do the childcare).

I currently work with a mum of a young DC who has a SAH DH, and I see her doing this e.g. staying later than necessary, organising regular after-work drinks etc (when they were allowed...).

I quite admire her in a way.

I am told the situation is vastly improved now. I don’t actually believe it, in all honesty. I don’t believe these people are dropping their kids off at school in the morning, picking them up at the end of the day, leaving work to collect them when they are sick, etc, I think they are just throwing money at the problem and telling themselves the bits they are outsourcing are unimportant

I definitely think it's changed & Covid/remote working will facilitate more change. My DH has done virtually every pick up/drop off since Sept as he wanted too.

Even before Covid if you look at the parents in my dcs class, the parents all make it for the play, sports day etc.

There are a few parents that need breakfast club but it's not a lot.

I outsource cleaning which I would do if I didn't work & the occasional gardener. I use an agency & often have male cleaners, they are just as good at cleaning.

@jillypill - as I work in a school, I know that you are actually pretty lucky. I know a lot of parents who need breakfast and after school clubs, or who leave their unaccompanied children outside the school entrance over half an hour before it opens, who don’t seem to have time to read letters from school, who ask if the nanny (if very well off) or childminder or grandparent can be copied in on everything so nothing gets missed, who miss most of their children’s concerts/plays, etc., and whose panic I can hear in their voices if they are asked to collect their ill child from school. I know parents who can only get their inflexible jobs to work if one works all night and the other works all day. Your reality is quite a privileged one, in my experience.

And of course, a lot of these people with more inflexible jobs are supporting and subsidising and working around the lifestyles of the better paid, enabling them to be more flexible at the expense of the less well off - because to pay them fairly and give them the same flexibility would make it too expensive and difficult for the more well paid to have the flexibility they expect. Your flexibility will always come at someone’s expense at some point down the line.