“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

Similar to @MollyButton. Those women who have said this has never been an issue, I strongly suspect that there is probably an over 50 or under 50 split on this (arbitary figure picked as an educated guess) or thereabouts, or you were just better at interviewing and picking the husband than me. And a lot of them say they will do ABC to support, then the reality happens, and it doesn't happen that way. So you live with it, or get divorced. In my case, I lived with it unhappily, then get divorced at a slightly later point. Easy to say "My husband just gets on with it". Not to easy when they won't, especially when they've said they will.

The, thing is sacrifices can be willing ones! You can still enjoy your life whilst sacrificing one aspect of it!

For example, I've had breast cancer which meant I 'sacrificed' one of my breasts. Would I make the same decision again? Yes! Did I benefit from that decision? Yes!Do I still think I can enjoy my life and feel good? Yes! But have I lost something I had before? There's no denying it, Yes! Do I sometimes feel a bit sad about it? Yes!

“Your opinion on what's relevant is not relevant”

At least I can speak from the perspective of someone who has been a SAHM for a long time. Unlike many on here. The thread is about women who (apparently) claim - “He wouldn’t be where he is is I hadn’t ... blah, blah, blah.” ie SAHWs.

What I am saying is that in some cases, this will be true. In others, not so much. But why anyone who has never been or wanted to be a SAHM should need to start or comment on a thread about a hypothetical statement strikes me as odd. In real life, nobody gives a hoot about other people’s marriages or how couples support each other.

If I started a thread asking “Why do working women say x,y,z...” it would be a disingenuous load of bollocks, wouldn’t it?

Women are constantly fed this line that you can have family and a career and maintain them both easily - in my experience it’s more like doing a shit job at both and trying to balance it so you aren’t too shit at either one.
And yet as you acknowledge this is only ever directed at women.

Nobody says to a man he can't be a father and have a career. Nobody says that a father who maintains a career whilst being a dad is doing his best not to be too shit at either.

Speaking generally, it would be really interesting to do a study into workplaces who apparently say no to fathers requesting flexible working and see how many women they have granted it to. It would be interesting to see how many women in companies have fought to get part time hours vs how many men make the request and then say 'oh ok then wife will have to go part time then'.

As ever, the expectation is that big important men have big important jobs and everyone else in life exists to facilitate them.

And yet as you acknowledge this is only ever directed at women.

Nobody says to a man he can't be a father and have a career. Nobody says that a father who maintains a career whilst being a dad is doing his best not to be too shit at either.

However, women shouldn't be blaming other women for being victims of these societal pressures and expectations. It should also be remembered child bearing and rearing is rarely straightforward and often challenging. Women should be supported. The roles they do take, valued. Their contributions to society celebrated. Women should not be denigrated for taking a bit of time out from paid employment to have children. Added to this their sacrifices should be acknowledged along with their achievements.

It is a joint responsibility to some extent, I was very very clear before we decided to have a child what the impact would be to me even just taking maternity leave, I also was clear that raising said child was a fully joint responsibility. DH and I were together ten years before having children, and I think you know someone by then, we'd established very early on that men are capable of housework.
There are lots of threads here where women say oh but then he just changed, but you look at the posting history and the red flags were there, but they really wanted babies so turned a blind eye (much less likely for a man to do that). Maybe that's where I was in a more powerful position I never had that all consuming urge to procreate.
DH and I both consolidated our full time working hours, both have to work unsocial hours each week, which is facilitated by the other. We had a few moments when I first went back after mat leave where I had to remind him that having a penis doesn't affect his ability to see household tasks that need doing , but that was more being used to me being at home and getting on with things after a year of it, as we'd always pulled out fair share of weight before having DS.
I've been promoted since DS was born (he's 2) and DH has completed a professional post grad qualification in that time, we have facilitated each other to do that. I earn more than he does. The blame does lay with feckless men, but shouldn't we all as women believe that we deserve more than some of the treatment we see on here and to stand up for ourselves if it's not forthcoming?

What I am saying is that in some cases, this will be true. In others, not so much. But why anyone who has never been or wanted to be a SAHM should need to start or comment on a thread about a hypothetical statement strikes me as odd. In real life, nobody gives a hoot about other people’s marriages or how couples support each other.

I disagree. I don't have a problem with someone wanting to be a SAHM & I know some excellent ones & recognise their value.
What I have a problem with is the different standards for mothers & fathers. No one questions a fathers ability to have a career.

If I started a thread asking “Why do working women say x,y,z...” it would be a disingenuous load of bollocks, wouldn’t it?

Why would it be? working women like SAHMs are not a homogenous bunch & Im sure they are capable of saying plenty I would disagree with.

It’s not as if there aren’t pressures on men either. How many men (particularly in my generation - I’m 48) grew up thinking that a stint at home looking after children would be an acceptable option for them?

Make or female, people are all different. You tend to (hopefully)! find a partner in life who will support / facilitate you so that in turn you can do the same. So, if, as a woman, you know, deep down, that you want to be able to stay home for a while in the event of children and this is something you instinctively envisage for yourself; then don’t for god’s sake, end up with a man who fully expects you back at work at the earliest opportunity. Similarly, if your career is a vital part of your identity and the thought of being at home with kids gives you the shudders, then don’t go for a man who is the excessively career-driven type and who would prefer a SAHM when all is said and done.

Whether it’s the 50/50 model purported as the ideal on here; or a SAHM scenario - all that matters is whether it suits the personalities of the people in that relationship. I don’t think there is a right and wrong. It’s ok to say, “I have supported my husband’s career if you feel you have and he agrees. Nobody else’s business really. Just as it’s ok to say, “DH and I both work equally so we can spend equal time with the DC.” If you feel that works for you, great. Horses for courses and don’t assume one model if a relationship works for everyone because clearly it does not. Some people are more comfortable with more homogenous roles in a relationship; others prefer more divided roles. Each to their own. As you get older, you realise nothing is perfect. Would I have been happier in a more 50/50 relationship. The truth is, I don’t think I would. Different yes, but no better.

It was the childcare costs and inflexible hours (plus lack of support from extended family) that drove me out of work (I wanted to work part-time). Coupled with my husband's occasional need to work away (to maintain his career). His earning power is a lot higher than mine. I have 3 dc, so probably not returning to work anytime soon (cost of wrap around care including 6 week summer holiday). I am currently developing a low key business and plan to volunteer later on, so I have interests outside of the home.

@LolaSmiles

Women are constantly fed this line that you can have family and a career and maintain them both easily - in my experience it’s more like doing a shit job at both and trying to balance it so you aren’t too shit at either one. And yet as you acknowledge this is only ever directed at women.

Nobody says to a man he can't be a father and have a career. Nobody says that a father who maintains a career whilst being a dad is doing his best not to be too shit at either.

Speaking generally, it would be really interesting to do a study into workplaces who apparently say no to fathers requesting flexible working and see how many women they have granted it to. It would be interesting to see how many women in companies have fought to get part time hours vs how many men make the request and then say 'oh ok then wife will have to go part time then'.

As ever, the expectation is that big important men have big important jobs and everyone else in life exists to facilitate them.

The Government told us that the extension of the right to request flexible working in 2014 had played an important part in changing workplace culture. However, men are less likely to make a request and are more likely than women to have their request rejected when they do. We received evidence that there is still a powerful ‘flexibility stigma’: the stigma workers face when working flexibly and so deviating from the model of the ‘ideal worker’ who works perpetually and without outside obligations. Furthermore, men may experience an additional ‘femininity stigma’ because flexible working deviates from the image of a masculine worker being a provider rather than a carer.

From Women & Equalities Committee on Fathers and the Workplace

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/358/35808.htm

To me the unwritten sadness (and yes this is very personal and money isn’t everything) which is winding its way through this thread is that invariably the woman is earning less money, and therefore she gives up work. (1) why is their work less important just because it pays less and (2) if it’s lower paid and not interesting, why are the women stuck doing these jobs, not the men? Yes I know it’s not always the case and I buck the trend along with a lot of my friends but bloody hell seeing it constantly trotted out is depressing! Honestly if I had a daughter I’d tell her not to worry about qualifications!

@Jangle33

I can only speak personally but id be interested to know the age differences most couples have.

My DH is 6 years my senior and I met/married and procreated with him in my early/mid twenties. I’d simply not had time to ‘establish’ my career and work up to a salary like his.

He didn’t want to be an old dad and for medical reasons we expected fertility struggles (my problem) luckily not an issue though. So waiting 5+ years for me to reach a level closer to his (he would have continued to overtake me though due to stages so would still have earnt more by then) didn’t feel like much of an option.

In our friendship circles an age gap like this seems rather common and so with it a career/earning gap.
We only have one couple friends who are the same age (met at uni) and they earn the same amount in the same career!

I can only speak personally but id be interested to know the age differences most couples have.

That's an interesting point. We all met at uni or on grad courses, through friendship circle so max is 2 yrs gap. youngest anyone had a dc was 28 I think, we were all working hard & playing hard.

“Nobody says to a man he can't be a father and have a career. Nobody says that a father who maintains a career whilst being a dad is doing his best not to be too shit at either.” Yet a SAHD according to most posters on Mumsnet is otherwise known as a cocklodger. And a man who asks for flexible working in many workplaces is most certainly judged as being workshy and probably shit at both his career and fatherhood. All these loaded questions about SAHMs and cocklodgers are just a way for a certain strident group of people to denigrate anything that has ever been seen as relating to the home or children rather than the workplace, imvho.

Don’t think you know what you’re talking about OP. Yawn.

Before we married, DH earned less than half what I did. Then childbirth -> sahm -> I was at home so took care of all of his needs as well as those of the child: all shopping, housework, cooking, gardening, general admin secretary, midnight child wakings, as well as what you blithly call ‘wraparound childcare’. For many years my day started at 5am and finished at 9pm and had at least 2 night wakings. Wraparound childcare doesn’t actually do that, you’d need two full time nannies.

He would need at least a staff of three, or one live in employee on call for him 24/7 and prepared to break all employment laws, to replace what I do.

While I was doing all that, DH was able to go back to college, change career, and devote 100% of his time and energy to his new job. He now earns EIGHT times what he did before I became a sahm. He would not be able to hold down that job unless he had someone else running the rest of his life.

(This also means I am now unable to go back to any kind of work unless he quits his job, which he has refused to do 🤦‍♀️)

Sounds familiar Skysblue

We do have a very comfortable life now though as a result so I am aware my violin is very small.

I am currently in two minds as to whether to make a push to return to my old career and insist DH does his home share - which may well impact on his career, and will certainly impact on the DC and be stressful for us all - or enjoy the easy but somewhat dull (and yes financially vulnerable) life of a SAHM of school age kids. Going round and round on this.

Walkaround
I've not seen SAHD called cocklodgers. I've seen plenty of men who don't work, do almost nothing round the house, don't pull their weight with the children and expect their working (female) partners to carry the mental load be called cocklodgers, but not SAHD who fulfil the valuable role of running the home and looking after the children.

People don't say dads can't have a career and be a father though. The assumption is that someone (generally dad) will work out the home and that someone else (generally mum) will fit in around work.
As someone quoted up thread, most dads aren't making flexible working requests. Do you not think men have a responsibility from their position of privilege to challenge the idea that flexible working equals giving up?

It seems awfully convenient that the driving force for better equality in domestic spheres comes from women, and then when women question why it is they're always expected to come second or women suggest we challenge the assumptions that women work for petty cash and have no aspirations after becoming a mum, fellow women tell us to shut up because their husband's job is important.

It seems that for every woman wanting greater equality and a culture change, there's another 3 who are quite happy to justify their (totally valid) choice to stay at home by (unjustifiably) doing the patriarchy's dirty work and perpetuating the idea that all these big important husbandswouldn't manage without them/it just makes sense to get a mummy job.

FWIW, I don't care if people stay home or go to work so it's not about working vs being home to me, but I'd like people to be transparent on their reasons(eg. I chose to stay at home because I want to be with the children, I chose to stay at home because my husband wants to prioritise his career and doesn't think he can manage to do home life things, I've felt forced to stay at home because Company A doesn't value flexible working from its employees and relies on spouses facilitating their employees working family-unfriendly hours.)

jellyfrizz That's really interesting.

He now earns EIGHT times what he did before I became a sahm.

Posters always put this & I get that it might be because people feel uncomfortable discussing figures however context can be important. It's 2 very different scenarios if you were earning 10k or 100k.

My dc are young adults now but I gave up work after having my 1st. I earned around 30k & DH was on 6 figures already. His earnings did increase while I was at home but that would be the norm in his field (law).
However I sort of fell into volunteering at the dcs prep (I was bored at home) which led to me taking a TA type job & then training to become a teacher which I still do p/t. This all coincided with DH taking a step back at work & stepping up at home, he was burnt out. I would have pushed for him to do it even if he hadn't chose to as we didn't need anymore money really & it was something I wanted to pursue. Even if I wasn't working I would have pushed for it as it was really nice for DH to be there more when the kids were teenagers. I'm really glad I got a 2nd wind so to speak as when the dc had gone to uni/left home I think I would have been very bored.

"He would not be able to hold down that job unless he had someone else running the rest of his life."

That someone could if both decide be someone(s) other that a spouse...plus the person with "big job" could also devote time outside work hours to run their life /meal plan /pick up laundry etc . As lone working parents have to do.
It s not news that having a full time sahp who willingly takes on Everything clearly facilitates the other parent to focus on career/work...but it isnt necessarily the answer to a balanced family life...the issue raised by op is that still the default is the "wife".
A rethink of mindset... a willingness of BigJob person to also find time for dc and take on mental load. Some do.

I don’t understand all the SAHP who keep saying that they wouldn’t get enough hired help to do the work they do...what do they think working parents do?? You just share out the jobs/childcare/mental load between you both..,! You get up in the middle of the night if a child wakes and you pay for the childcare element whilst you are at work/share with other parents.., it’s not like the extra stuff suddenly disappears. And almost every SAHP I know (naice SW London) has a cleaner so they also outsource the drudge...

Exactly what I was thinking. It is possible since people do that.

All the SAHM I know left work due to the extortionate costs of childcare, here in London.

They were not lazy, they were simply people who earnt an average salary, in some cases low, and couldn't pay nursery and rent, whilst having enough flexibility. It's mostly people who have hard working DHs and who worked hard for years before kids.

These idea that the country is packed with wealthy SAHMs is quite frankly irrealistic. If you have inferred it from this forum, I wouldn't take it seriously. There are lots of fantasists on here.

Reducing the costs of childcare by subsiding it more is the answer, not calling other women lazy and entitled.

This is a really interesting thread. Of course people make individual choices relating to their own circumstances and preferences. And that is of course completely fine.

However it would be self defeating to believe that our individual choices are made in a vacuum and not shaped by the society we live in.

Some women will have sacrificed and supported a lifestyle for their other half which he could not have had on his own. I think the OP is naive to think you can outsource everything even if money is no object. Having a SAHP certainly enables some careers but it and it can also enable a family and a lifestyle.

It is impossible to fully generalise on this issue but personally I do think it’s short sighted if you don’t see childcare costs as a shared cost. And don’t think about the long term as well.

The problem with certain types of career is that they are not genuinely family friendly, even if they pretend to be. And men are either more reluctant to ask for or successful in being able to get flexibility.

I look back to my 20s and think about women I knew who has these high flying, highly paid, driven boyfriends, who some of my other friends were incredibly jealous of. I wasn’t envious then and certainly aren’t now, when I see them doing absolutely everything for their children and either ditching their jobs or tailspinning with the stress of doing 100% of parenting and trying to maintain their career.

My DH and I have taken turns on who earns the most as our careers have developed but we’ve always been in the same ballpark. we’ve also both been in jobs where doing pick up and drop off around work is completely acceptable and normal and where we can split responsibility equally whilst helping each other out when needed. Neither of us would contemplate taking a job which threatened that balance. For us we don’t think that’s fair to each other or our kids. I do completely recognise that we are very lucky to have that balance but lots (not all!) of people could do that if they were willing to earn less.

Jangle33 it’s not so much that you can’t get childcare to cover what a SAHP does. It’s more that you can’t get childcare that covers two very demanding careers. If you both regularly leave home by 8 and get home at 9pm or later (as was the case for us) then something has to give as you cannot get childcare for those hours - even live in - unless you’re willing to exploit someone and never see your kids. Plus if you are doing night wakings you probably can’t keep up the performance level required to keep that kind of job/get promoted.

“It seems awfully convenient that the driving force for better equality in domestic spheres comes from women, and then when women question why it is they're always expected to come second or women suggest we challenge the assumptions that women work for petty cash and have no aspirations after becoming a mum, fellow women tell us to shut up because their husband's job is important.”

Who has said that?! If you’re referring to this thread I think you need to reread it carefully. What people are saying is the OP is unreasonable because in many cases described here a spouse would not be where they are in their career without their partner having sacrificed their own career.