“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

women will increasingly chose not to have children and we will become a dying society of elderly people" what dystopian fresh hell prayer book did you copy that from?
Yes and it popped up in a diatribe, so yes I’ll query what’s that about

@Phineyj my mum was a SAHM but we had also had a nanny & a cleaner etc. My parents would also go on holiday without us so I don't see childcare as a bad thing that is only needed if parents work.

Actually think it was Japan that is actually happening. Women expected to do everything and care for their in laws and women with decent jobs and fun lives thinking “sod that” and birth rate plummeted- voting with feet (or with wombs actually!)

I don't think my DMum does either (or me - I have an exhausting child with SEN - the more the merrier, I'd say, regarding trusted adult caregivers). But she has said that there is much more availability and choice of childcare now. She had a choice of nanny or quit.

I am not sure about this. I'm a high-earning working mother whose DH takes on majority of childcare as he has a more flexible, lower earning job. Our DD will go to nursery but beyond normal nursery hours, I do think our child would be deprived of key parental influence if we were both absent all day and no money my DH could make would make that choice worthwhile for us. I am very grateful for everything he's doing and I am fully aware that without him accepting to put his career on a (significant) pause - my career would suffer a lot in this period.

Childcare is more than just feeding/changing/pick-ups etc. It is all about being present, involved actively in DD's upbringing. Happy to rely on professionals here and there, but majority of input needs to come from us and we wouldn't be able to do that properly (in our opinion!) if we both had high-flying jobs.

Very few nurseries & schools didn't do wraparound care when mine were small. Also posted abroad for 6 years to a country where I was a dependent and not permitted to work. Unable to resume career in IT on return as systems had changed massively in time away from work. However I loved being a SAHM and the time I had with my children, and the amazing travel & experience of living overseas.

Haven't RTFT but agree with OP. Giving up a career is a silly thing to do and is often regretted, even when marriage lasts. Also, when I look around at the SAHMs I know, the decision is 100% theirs and their husbands make a huge sacrifice to enable them to SAH. Often spending less time with their kids as a result of being the only person earning money. I think it is a very outdated model and most people would be happier with more balance in both their own lives and also within their relationships.

@Uhohmummy

Blaming women once more for men’s poor behaviour... this thread is so depressing

Isn't it just? I read thread after thread of women in relationships with men who vary from pointless to down right evil, the minimisation and justification never fails to amaze me, and the fact there are women who are happy to have relationships and childen with men like that depresses me too.

Looking at this thread I see how men constantly get away with it.

relationships are about teamwork, respect and support. Its sad that so many posters don't understand that.

The problematic behaviour is from both sexes. You can’t blame men solely for not stepping up. We need to hold the line and stop accepting excuses

Haven’t read the thread but don’t Agree that’s always the case. I work part time and the days I work are harder on DH for sure. With three kids he has to pitch on drop off and pick up. He can’t work the hours he prefers.
On the days I am off he shoots off to the office at 6 in the morning and often isn’t home till 7. He has said himself he is grateful he is able to this and couldn’t without me at home. He was also the one that was more keen to have three kids. At one point I had an option to up my hours which would have been better for my career but he was not keen at all as he believed it would affect his ability to earn. He earns 5-10 times more than me so it would have made a difference.

You can’t blame men solely for not stepping up. We need to hold the line and stop accepting excuses

Oh its the women who need to fix the mens shortcomings again. So much misogyny on this thread its depressing. I'm going to bow out and hide it now

The problematic behaviour is from both sexes.You can’t blame men solely for not stepping up. We need to hold the line and stop accepting excuses
This 100%.
Men are responsible for their behaviour. Men are responsible if they are selectively useless around the home. Men are responsible for putting their personal goals and work ahead of the family. Men are responsible for arguing they simply cannot do family life with their big important job,even though women in the same role do. Men are responsible if they assume the women in their lives exist to facilitate their big important man lives. Men are responsible if they choose not to take shared parental leave, if they choose to prioritise extensive travel, if they choose to chase promotions knowing they will have even less time for family whilst expecting their wives will pick up the slack.All of that behaviour is down to men.

Women have a choice over what they are willing to accept. Women have a choice over whether they work/stay at home and both are valid choices. Women have a choice whether they give up their job or not. Women have a choice whether they tell their partners that they expect childcare and housework to be equitably shared. Women have a choice whether they own their choice to give up work because they would like to be aSAHP. Wome
have a choice whether they continue to perpetuate the idea that big important men couldn't possibly manage without someone at home. Women have a choice whether they accept all domestic loads being dumped on them because their husband is apparently too useless and disorganised to do the food shop (and we all know he won't be useless and disorganised at work).

Men are responsible for men.
Women are responsible for women.

Women and men have responsibility for their choices and behaviours. Behaviour has consequences

now it sounds like you think large sections of society should be sitting on the naughty step.

@rathertalktothecats I know the world you inhabit although I don’t live in it myself although have tangentially been close, in my childhood and working life. I think what jumps up at me though is how why it’s still the men who have these highly successful, portfolio careers, not the women. A great pity as I think the world of business is missing out. Whatever the lip service is given to equal quotas and the like. I can’t help but think we are continuing to sell our daughters lies about having a top career as well as a family.

Yes, but you can't make your partner take a full part if they don't want to, and you can't tell in advance how they're going to be (you can obviously guess, discuss and observe how they are in similar situations). Women breadwinners lack role models and so do engaged dads.

And as many people have already pointed out, if you're sufficiently hard-headed to push back against selfishness and prioritisr your own career, your children may suffer (or more likely you will end up delegating the caring to other women, paid or unpaid).

I am always suspicious when you see general trends and gaps across a society and it's somehow the fault of poor decision-making on the part of individual women. We all operate in a context. I would be astonished if you could find threads like these on male-dominated forums. It's simply not on their radar.

I used to think was this definitely true. Now I have DC, I’m less sure. I think some women do use it as an excuse to justify their choices, yes.

But OTOH, it’s also true that two people with high flying careers will often mean the DC are in childcare 7am-7pm every day (so all their awake time...), plus both parents often working at the weekend rather than spending time with them. That’s hard on both kids and parents, which then often almost forces couples to choose one of them to have the high flying career and the other one downsizes to make family life manageable.

The alternative, is to have two parents who both work, but both also have to make sacrifices at work to ensure the DC aren’t in paid childcare all the time - so eg leaving on time, lowering standards at work so aren’t working over weekend etc. This is what DH and I are currently doing and I am happy with it as I don’t think I’m the personality to be a SAHM. But I won’t pretend it’s easy and there are days after a particularly tough week that I think it could all come crashing down on us.

Agree this thread is depressing.

Women are usually the default child carer. IME Men expect this regardless of what they say and society does too.

The area I live in is not a high flier kind of place.

IME also a lot of the men who at work say they wish their wives would work/work more hours are not interested at all in putting any effort in to helping this be a viable option.

You talk for a bit about the practicalities and they want nothing to do with them or you know their wives and that they really cannot hold down a regular set hours job because the husband is always in a meeting/runnning late/having to do extra work etc.

I agree that men benefit at work from the appearances of having a "stable" home life (kids and a wife) and therefore progress easier than their female counterparts. In order to do this the women in my area do sacrifice their careers to one extent or another.

If they didn't benefit from having the SAHW & kids and they didn't want children themselves surely they would marry women who also didn't want children or not marry/have kids at all and just enjoy a childfree life and have less to complain about at work right?

I think it's clear they benefit from a SAHM in terms of house related stuff being mainly taken care of (and expected to be done as such), so they can spend more time at work or relaxing after a long hard day at work because the meals are cooked, dishes done, house tidy, bills paid, the plumber called about the leaky pipe, kids taken care of etc.

I think a lot of men who talk about wanting a working wife are frankly talking out of their bums. When you get right down to it they really want a 50's housewife which is bloody depressing.

I'm always really suspicious when a man high up at work is complaining about his SAHW and wonder (and in one case know very well sadly) what crap the poor women is enduring at home while being run down to all that will listen about how that poor man has it really hard!

It is actually a sacrifice to the women. Career progression practically stopped, earning potential significantly reduced, less pension etc contributions made, less for their sense of self (I know so many mums that have had the "who am I but a mum now" mini-crisis) and at the end of the day after making the sacrifices - previously discussed and agreed on or just lumped on them by shitty H's - how many women do you see on here or know in real life who's H's have been generally crappy or thankless and unthinking about the W's side of things or end up cheating/leaving?

I do know women sometimes are SAHM's because they don't want to work and their H is happy with this, I think it's risky in terms of what will happen should they ever separate but think it's lovely that they get to spend so much time with their kids.

Yes women are responsible for what they accept but in a lot of cases there have been discussions on what will happen after children but then they don't happen the way it was discussed. Sometimes this is because the man makes it difficult either because he always really wanted a SAHW or because he is an arsehole or abusive. No one can predict whether their H will stick to the agreement when it comes down to it.

It is depressing but something positive I have taken from these threads is that at least on Mumsnet, there are the female breadwinners, the people who are trying to share equally with partners and the people who are asking the right questions. I moan about my DH a lot on here, but to be fair to him, he does try - but I find expectations of men as parents are so low. And he'd be a crap SAHD. He just doesn't care enough about house/organisational things unless they affect him directly (and not always then). So I find it quite encouraging to hear from people who have done a better job of this than I have. I hope things are changing and that Covid won't wipe that out.

“ The alternative, is to have two parents who both work, but both also have to make sacrifices at work to ensure the DC aren’t in paid childcare all the time - so eg leaving on time, lowering standards at work so aren’t working over weekend etc. This is what DH and I are currently doing and I am happy with it as I don’t think I’m the personality to be a SAHM. But I won’t pretend it’s easy and there are days after a particularly tough week that I think it could all come crashing down on us.”

I still think you can achieve, have a high salary, huge career satisfaction and not work weekends/constant evenings. I am hopeful that the wfh revolution forced by covid May change the world. We both work part time with a combined salary of prob £180k and our kids only do 2 after school sessions per week. I’m bloody proud of that. Clearly not possible with presents schoolers but once you’re past that stage, you don’t have to both be working round the clock to be highly successful.

Sorry that should say, “not possible with ore schoolers”

Jangle not all careers allow this. I work for the nhs. So would never earn close to that kind of money working part time. Depends on the career and we can’t all do the same thing.

Jangle33 - thats really impressive. But you must see that even with hard work the majority of people are not going to be working part time for a salary of 90k. The vast majority of earners are not higher rate tax payers when working FT and many of these will be very high up in their field.

We both work part time with a combined salary of prob £180k

Surely you can appreciate that that is extremely unusual and beyond what’s achievable for most careers?

But this thread is about those men who earn crazy amounts (far more than me!) and they only did it because their wives gave up working. It’s not about the norm/average.

I want to change the narrative - where both partners share the load/earn the money and perhaps aim a little lower.

And I for one would paid a lot higher taxes if it meant the teaching and NHS professions would embrace flexible working/job shares.