“He wouldn’t be where he is if I hadn’t sacrificed my career”

[BooFuckingHoo2]

I am expecting a flaming for this .

AIBU to think this is often untrue? I know many men with stay at home wives and kids who, in all honesty, whilst happy to have kids (because the wife does all the wifework) would probably have been equally happy with either no kids or extensive wraparound childcare and an equally high earning wife.

I often see it trotted out on here “I sacrificed my career to look after our children” - but the for the majority of women (aside from some exceptions e.g. husband working abroad) I’m sure it was a welcome choice and not something they were strong armed into. In my experience (unless childcare costs eclipse the wife’s salary) the husband is usually indifferent (aside from the wankers who want a trophy wife) as to whether the wife works or not.

Equally “he wouldn’t be where he is in his career if it wasn’t for me”. I’m sure there’s a small minority of women who’ve accelerated their husbands career but I think for most, they’d have been the same with or without their wife, although granted possibly with no children or higher childcare costs.

AIBU?

Everyone's different. But my exh wouldn't be where he is in his career if I hadn't extensively helped him in myriad ways, including writing his CVs, coaching him for interviews, building up his confidence, job hunting for him, pushing him to take career building roles and courses, etc. He was in the same stagnant job for many years before I came along and influenced him. Plus he can barely string a couple of sentences together without pronouncing words incorrectly or writing several grammatical errors without noticing. Oh I certainly helped him advance his career at the expense of my own, but at the time I thought we were a team and had mutual respect. I was wrong.

And I know that working four days a week isn't an option for everyone, but isn't it funny how many more women somehow end up with employers who will contemplate part-time working than men? Where DH works lots and lots of the female staff work part-time but he's one of only two men out of a couple of hundred who do.

I am directly quoting your example, were you cited busy working adults who are too busy to leave work to shop. I’m simply saying that your example is utter tosh

What on earth are you talking about? I quoted your post where you wrote about ‘kick ass men needing someone at home to dress them’ and I made the point that it was nothing to do with ‘shopping’ and everything to do with being available to deal with childcare emergencies.

Are you generally hard of understanding? It would explain why you’re so agitated by this thread if you can’t really comprehend the points being made.

@AliceMcK

Well said *@SinkGirl*

No one ever tells you or thinks about the impacts of sick children or the constant illnesses parents pick up from their children. My DH and I were constantly ill for years picking up bugs from the DCs, especially when they start mixing with other children.

Nor the constant medical visits, I’ve got one child under the paediatric unit, 1 under dermatology & allergy specialist, another under podiatrist and now SEN, all of which have taken years of GP and hospital visits and pushing to get here. It’s never ending.

If we both worked it would be impossible for us to keep up with everything and give are best to our jobs and our children.

That first six months of nursery was a massive shock to me - people mentioned the constant bugs but I didn’t realise they actually meant literally constant. When we then had chicken pox and DT2 starting with it the day DT1 went back to nursery after 14 days off, I was about ready to throw myself off a building.

And of course during COVID - it’s bloody lucky I work 7 hours a week very flexibly because DH would not have been able to work his full time job if I had had to do it too. The boys need constant supervision, day and much of the night. You can’t just stick them in front of the TV or with an activity and get on with work.

No way could he have managed working full time with what I did through 2020 - handling both of their education tribunals while taking care of them and keeping them safe, without the respite of nursery. And unless we had many thousands to spare for a solicitor, you can’t just hand that off to someone else. I had to do a load of SEN law training during lockdown just to know what the hell i was doing, find an independent EP, sort out nearly 1,000 pages of evidence between them etc etc.

Between them my boys have 3 paediatricians, 2x ENTs, an endocrinologist, a geneticist, 2 x SALTs, OT, special needs dentist, ophthalmologist, optometrist, VI teacher, allergy nurse, portage (until recently), community paeds nurse, social care OT, disability social worker, audiology... I actually think there’s more and I can’t think of them all right now! New referrals coming too (neurology, metabolics, sleep clinic). Appointment frequency varies from once a year right up to once a week for some of them at times - there was a week just before lockdown where we had 8 appointments in one week.

I realise this isn’t the case for everyone, but I know so many people in the same boat. And it’s not just the appointments themselves but the time and energy needed to keep on top of it all while also trying to effectively parent children with extensive needs. Not having to think about all this, keep track of when appointments should be coming through and chasing them up, DLA applications / renewals, etc etc etc. I am basically my twins’ PA. Which I have no problem with, but it’s disingenuous to say that all of this could be done by DH while he’s also working full time and being reliable, flexible and productive. The fact I can take all of this on without having to worry about letting an employer down all the time is beneficial to all of us.

@RUOKHon I’m so warming to you. Your convivial manner, mn is a better place with you on board

@Mischance

Bringing up children is work. It is not either bring up children or work.

Women are very privileged now to have choices and choosing to be at home looking after the family is an entirely valid choice; as indeed it is for some men - e.g. my DD works and her OH looks after the children.

I chose to have a 5 year career break when my children were small - then picked up my career again. It worked for me. I was glad to have the choice.

Yes but the Ops point was that men are indifferent.

Certainly being at home with the kids us out there choice for them but with little attraction. Men chose the job.

Actually I (only) know two men that have done all the childcare and housework and they work. One full time ( divorced) and one part time ( married to high earner).
Interesting the part timer found going back into “ interesting” full time work much easier than my 50 year old mum friends. It was like he hadn’t been away.

RUOKHon
You're right on the different situations front.

I think part of the issue on the 'he wouldn't have... if it wasn't for me sacrificing everything' is that for each situation where one parent genuinely does have to sacrifice their career for the family unit, there's at least half a dozen others who haven't and use the phrase to mean the following:
'I didn't like my job, wasn't building a career and would rather have stayed at home'
'I wanted a change of direction and being a SAHP was a good time to pause and take stock of what to do whilst giving me time with the children'
'DH could have arranged his working hours to factor in family life just like his female colleagues do, but he would rather not and I'm happy to stay at home'
'I would rather be a SAHP but rather than own that decision I will claim he would be nowhere without me' (these people tend to be the ones who list organising the family photos and waving the children out the door to school on their list of very busy days - both real threads)

There's nothing wrong with choosing to be a SAHP and there's absolutely situations where someone does have to make big sacrifices in the name of the family unit, but if you took everything at face value on mumsnet then the UK is full of very important men folk with very important jobs and very demanding schedules that are apparently incompatible with family life if you have a penis, but doable for women doing the same role.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of the 'I sacrificed my career and my husband would be nothing without me doing the home things' really translates to 'we could use childcare for our entirely normal boring jobs, but I wanted to stay at home, we can afford to and it means my husband (who has a middle of the road management level job) doesn't have to worry about collecting a puking child'.

This is one of those things that I've only ever seen on here and I've never heard anyone say in real life.

Aside from the fact that I think "sacrificed my career" is a bit dramatic for most people, I didn't pause my career to allow my husband to advance his. As you say OP, he could've done that even if I'd carried on working. I paused my career for the good of my kids. We could have afforded wraparound care from an early age but I didn't want to. Any sacrifice I made was for them, not my husband.

(and for myself, I suppose, since being with them more was for my own benefit as much as theirs)

I do believe that many women who say they can't work in actuality simply don't want to work, so they come up with the rationalizations the OP refers to.

The day DD started full time in reception I also started full time work. I didn't have to, I wasn't asked to, OH never made comments or sly digs, or limited money. I wanted to , so as soon as I could make it financially and time wise viable I did.

^^ if you took everything at face value on mumsnet then the UK is full of very important men folk with very important jobs and very demanding schedules that are apparently incompatible with family life if you have a penis, but doable for women doing the same role.

Absolutely this.

DH and I had no family to rely on. At one point we were paying £2,000 a month in double bubble nursery fees (London). Me being a SAHM meant we were able to save half that.

I looked at the very high cost as a temporary cost though as long term it paid for me to stay working eg in terms of pension.

For those of us SAHP who do own our choice and who make a contribution to the family unit without which it would not be as happy or as stable, threads like these are pretty annoying.

One thing that annoys me is the narrative that men love to work, or thrive in that environment etc. Why is it often a good thing with reference to a dads career but a negative if discussing a mothers one?
My dad was a high earner who I barely saw & yes I was lucky to have my mum around but I would have loved more time with my dad tbh.

Indeed.the contrasting conclusions arrived at are mired in prejudice
Man who’s career focussed is driven. It’s a +ve. Woman who’s career focussed is driven is a heartless husk

For those of us SAHP who do own our choice and who make a contribution to the family unit without which it would not be as happy or as stable, threads like these are pretty annoying
The OP isn't talking about all SAHP or whether it's the right choice for people.

They are questioning whether the 'DH wouldn't have his career without me / wouldn't be where he is without me / I made all these sacrifices for him' arguments are necessarily accurate assessments or whether they are sometimes arguments used to gloss over the more realistic (and valid) position of 'I wanted to stay at home with my children and it was the right decision for our family in that season'.

It's incredibly difficult to keep two high powered careers going at the same time when you have multiple children, especially if one of you has to commute into London.

DH works in the city and I had a pretty good career until I had children (although mine was a profession and I'd really maxed it out before I had children).
What do call successful though OP?

It comes up later when he starts to talk as if all the money is his because he's the one who earned it. That's when women bring up the sacrificed the career argument. And it's fair, in my opinion because all the caring work is unpaid. Why would anyone want to undermine women on this point? Already there are women working hard all their lives and still living in poverty in old age because of this unfair system.

we could use childcare for our entirely normal boring jobs, but I wanted to stay at home, we can afford to and it means my husband (who has a middle of the road management level job) doesn't have to worry about collecting a puking child

I don’t disagree with your post. I think every different permutation you’ve listed - and more besides - are probably true.

In my case, we did use childcare for our boring normal jobs, but neither of us was getting anywhere. We wanted to buy a bigger house, we wanted to be able to afford extra curricular things for the DCs, we wanted to be able to use annual leave at the same time and actually have a proper holiday. So, when DH got the chance to earn enough to make all that happen, I was happy for him to go for it at the expense of my career. We’re a team and we all benefit from him being able to put everything into his career.

But for every situation like mine, there will be a situation where the husband unilaterally decides to take a more responsible job and the wife has to agree under duress. Or where the wife decides ‘fuck it’ and quits her job because she just doesn’t want to do it any more and the husband has to take the strain. Or someone gets made redundant and they have to rethink the whole set up. Or one of the children has a long term illness. Or the relatives you’ve been relying on for free flexible childcare get hit by a bus. Etc, etc...

It’s crazy to me that anyone could possibly think there’s one answer or one ‘right’ way to do it.

I’m in London.we both work, I’ve worked straight through,in fact I’m working more
Two working parents It’s not hardYou throw money at it. Really it’s not insurmountable in the least
Just that two working parents is always bigged up as a torturous cant do situation

@LolaSmiles but surely that is true to some level. Likely the husband's career might not be quite as far ahead if the wife was not doing the child care and house work allowing him to work the hours required to get the promotions and career path they did. This does not mean that these women recent any of this success but surely some credit should go to them.

@HeelsHandbagPerfumeCoffee

I’m in London.we both work, I’ve worked straight through,in fact I’m working more Two working parents It’s not hardYou throw money at it. Really it’s not insurmountable in the least Just that two working parents is always bigged up as a torturous cant do situation

That might be true if life runs smoothly with no curve balls thrown at you. There are some things in life that money cannot resolve.

@LolaSmiles

For those of us SAHP who do own our choice and who make a contribution to the family unit without which it would not be as happy or as stable, threads like these are pretty annoying The OP isn't talking about all SAHP or whether it's the right choice for people.

They are questioning whether the 'DH wouldn't have his career without me / wouldn't be where he is without me / I made all these sacrifices for him' arguments are necessarily accurate assessments or whether they are sometimes arguments used to gloss over the more realistic (and valid) position of 'I wanted to stay at home with my children and it was the right decision for our family in that season'.

You're right but this seems an easy route into bashing SAHMs. Plus it's incredibly belittling of the work an at home parent does and their lived experience. By default, a SAHP does not have the same opportunities for a career that their working partner does.

Wanting to stay at home with your children is OK.

Wanting to work full time when you have children is OK.

Wanting to work part time when you have children is OK.

Coming onto MUMSnet to start a thread bleating about poor men & their un ambitious, lazy wives sponging off them by having the audacity to want to raise their children is NOT OK.

There are some things in life that money cannot resolve Completely agree
That’s why you should hug your kids, tell those you love how much they mean to you and be grateful for what you have