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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Hunting on Boxing Day

284 replies

GreyMary23 · 27/12/2020 09:28

I've seen numerous reports about Boxing Day hunts going ahead yesterday. What the fuck? I despise hunting anyway - like most decent/sane people - but to allow it to go ahead when so many are spending Christmas alone due to covid is utterly unbelievable. Before anyone says it's because it's outdoors, so is children's sport yet my dc haven't been able to attend rugby or football training in weeks.

How on Earth was this allowed to happen?

OP posts:
TrainspottingWelsh · 30/12/2020 01:32

@foodlesnoodles
I don't really know, or associate with anyone that would deny some hunts, or their members, behave badly or illegally. But just because you personally haven't witnessed, or have turned a blind eye to sabs behaving badly to people, being cruel to animals or breaking the law doesn't mean it's unusual. It really isn't. I have no doubt some sabs join under the illusion it's a genuine cause, and then either are too ignorant to recognise it isn't, get swept up by the cult, or leave to pursue a worthy group.

No, of course not everyone can afford a horse and the associated costs. But the more experience you have, the cheaper they are and many people with small disposable incomes own horses. Certainly, both as a child and now, I know plenty of people that would scrimp to pay for a weekly riding lesson in a city, but successfully had horses or rode because that was their background. Of course, that doesn't mean the child of a factory worker can access pony owning on the same budget a farm labourers child can, or that a novice city dweller on a low wage can afford it when an experienced person could. And of course many don't have any disposable income at all. But it doesn't require extreme wealth either. And once you've managed to beg, steal or borrow a horse to hunt, nobody gives a flying fuck what your background is. Except the sabs and the media that like to pretend we're all landed gentry.

I didn't grow up near a fox hunt, hence drag hunting. I was raised mainly with the philosophy the hunt got the weak and injured and the healthy escaped. And the kill was the same as a terrier killing a rat. So not a bad thing at all, a much quicker and kinder death than starvation or any other man made method of culling. And being country born and bred, I always knew why culling some populations was necessary. And why shooting isn't as easy or instant for every species.
The only reason I didn't ever fancy trying it was because the ridden aspect wasn't as appealing, or guaranteed as a drag hunt. I certainly didn't have any doubts about whether it was the kindest way to manage foxes.

I wasn't convinced otherwise by adults shouting abuse at me or my friends when we hacked, or even one occasion walked in a shop in an area the hunt was expected or recently passed. I certainly wasn't convinced when my friends horse snapped his leg in a hole dug by bastard sabs. I wasn't convinced when her local hunt kindly and mercifully shot him, to the jeers of sabs, presumably they were hoping to admire their handiwork for the time it would have taken to get a vet pre mobile phones. I wasn't convinced by townie fuckwits, however polite, telling me the cutesy wutesy foxes didn't need to be managed. I wasn't convinced by the hyperbole and emotive bollocks about all hunts ending in the fox torn limb from limb from people that were oblivious to the size difference between a hound and a fox, let alone how a pack works. I wasn't convinced by the ignorant drivel about just shooting them instead, from fuckwits that had no concept of the practicalities or what dying of gangrene entails.

What convinced me pre ban was a conversation with someone that had grown up hunting regularly, and did so for many years as an adult. Until the day they witnessed a kill that went wrong, and was neither quick nor kind. Even though they knew from personal experience that was rare and unfortunate, and not the fault or intention of hunt staff, it was enough to change their mind, and in turn mine. Once is too often.

But it's highly detrimental to animal welfare, and indeed insulting on a personal level for those of us that are against illegal hunting to be lumped in on the same side as the sabs.

Vieve1325 · 30/12/2020 01:49

I am pro hunt, and hunted both pre and post ban. My hunt operates entirely within the law. And I was brought up in a single parent household in a deprived area- hardly what the media would portray as a typical hunt follower. I have a good job, but drive a 1 litre shit box and make some massive lifestyle sacrifices to be able to afford my horse.

Sabs are an awful breed of people, who regularly cause more hard to animals than any hunt follower ever would. I remember being targeted by one ‘gentleman’ whilst out who’s ego reduced entirely two weeks later when I bumped into him in his local pub without his balaclava and sab pals, and once he realised that I was more than capable of standing up for myself one on one when I didn’t have a horse to get home safely he wasn’t so passionate about his cause.

Turns out intimidating mostly women and children on horses doesn’t look quite as hard when it’s shared from your unedited head cam footage and not the edited sab version....

nancybotwinbloom · 30/12/2020 02:22

@Vieve1325

What made you want to hunt foxes and watched then be slaughtered.
Not being goady it's a genuine question?

KarmaNoMore · 30/12/2020 05:17

I think things are never black and white, it is wrong to make a circus of killing an fox in such cruel manner, I certainly disagree with fox hunting but... I have also heard that sabs are good at hurting horses and targeting women and children, and that is before we start talking of microlights...so I don’t think they are as nice and gentle as people want to believe either.

There’s no doubt fox hunting needs to stop but there are guilty parties on both sides of the argument.

MispyM · 30/12/2020 07:19

There are drag hunts that are entirely legal and are not sabbed.

There are drag hunts that are entirely legal. And are sabbed.

Vieve1325 · 30/12/2020 08:51

@nancybotwinbloom -

(a) the field doesn’t see the fox being killed. In my 10 years of hunting pre ban, I think foxes had been dispatched on 3 or 4 days.

(B) I am comfortable with the culling of foxes given the first hand damage I’ve seen them do. No different to having a yard cat or a terrier.

(C) hunting is an incredibly social and supportive group, with people from all walks of life.

(D) a day out hunting is an invaluable training opportunity for many horses - for example, my current horse went through a dangerous stage where she wasn’t confident enough to ride out alone. I’d tried many methods, but then took her out hunting for one day two years ago and never had a bother again. It makes them brave, confident, patient, and makes them aware of their feet. It’s an atmosphere you can’t replicate, and I have had the chance to meet and learn from the wisest and most experienced horsemen.

(E) there is nothing like standing in a field with your horse and companions on the coldest of days, in desperate most beautiful countryside some people could only dream of seeing. To gallop across those fields is a freedom to be experienced.

Springersrock · 30/12/2020 09:05

@MispyM

There are drag hunts that are entirely legal and are not sabbed.

There are drag hunts that are entirely legal. And are sabbed.

There definitely are

My daughter was out with the bloodhounds once. One tried to pull her off her pony.

countrygirl99 · 30/12/2020 09:16

@Thewithesarehere
Drag hunting involves usually bloodhounds following a pre-laid scent. Often aniseed but can other scents. The scent doesn't mimic fox scent and the hounds are bred or trained to kill. The scent is usually laid by dragging an impregnated cloth by runner or quad. The lines ate usually fairly straight and the objective is a fast, thrilling ride as the hounds follow the scent.
Trail hunting is, in theory, similar except the aim is to mimic a foxhunting and the dogs are foxhounds. The possibilities for things going wrong with a trail hunting are pretty obvious even with the best of intentions.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 30/12/2020 10:16

Tell us what it is! I'm not clicking into a sab link unaware!

foodlesnoodles · 30/12/2020 10:19

I'm pretty sure you can read the link? 🤣 it's the independent for Heaven's sake.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 30/12/2020 10:33

Nope! On my phone it's just says click here... No other words or explanation.

Now I know it's the Indy, assuming as I do that you wouldn't fib I'll read it!

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 30/12/2020 10:38

Another one that's been intimidated by sabs on more than one occasion. I originally thought they were my people as I'm a long term vegan and animal rights activist. Have been known to be arrested for animal rights protests etc.

However seeing the way they treated children and animals at a drag hunt, with bloodhounds, so not interested in foxes I realized how scary and dangerous they are.

It beggars belief how they think that hurting animals and children will stop others from hunting foxes. Having grown up in the country and so having an understanding of the different types of hunt. You can easily tell the illegal ones from the legal. As someone upthread said, drag hunting is essentially a glamourized hack, yet the sabs don't seem to know (or care) about the difference.

HikeForward · 30/12/2020 10:52

What is daft is thinking citronella will harm hounds - you can bathe in it and you'll just smell fresh. Or that sabs entice hounds onto the road - why would anyone do that, never mind passionate activists who bloody love animals? Who sacrifice their spare time to stop any animal being killed?

Sorry to burst your bubble but not all sabs are animal-loving activists. Some are thugs or bored youths looking for a fight. Hunt security provide an opportunity for them to release some aggression, like bouncers in night clubs.

I’m sure many sabs do care deeply about animals and think they’re doing a good thing. But some engage in behaviours that put animals and humans at risk (unintentionally perhaps). Eg I’ve seen hounds lured onto roads by sabs with decoy horns and whips. Maybe the sabs didn’t realise if they stood in that position blowing that note hounds would end up on the road. Then sabs frantically try to round up the hounds and get them off the road, using all the wrong commands, instead of letting the huntsman do his job! Then they harass him about holding up traffic without realising (or acknowledging) hounds wouldn’t be on the road if it weren’t for their amateur horn blowing and attempts to pull hounds off the scent.

I’ve seen sabs trying to pull people off horses, grabbing horses by the mouth, jumping out in front of them, getting in the way of jumps and causing horses to fall and pile up on landing.

Some sabs I’m sure are well meaning animal lovers using citronella spray. Others are thugs using bleach and other noxious chemicals, so when the spray bottles come out is it any wonder the hunt staff get annoyed and suspicious?

Also, if hounds are on a pre-laid non fox scent and sabs destroy that scent, hounds will likely pick up a fox’s scent instead.

And on occasion sabs have (probably accidentally) headed a fox straight into the path of hounds. Then screamed at hounds to ‘leave it, fucking get off it’ by which time fox is dead. Then they blame the hunt for ‘losing control’ of hounds.

malificent7 · 30/12/2020 11:00

Yanbu op.

Polkadotties · 30/12/2020 11:05

One day I will have the balls to go hunting. I’ve got the perfect horse (full ID) although I think it will totally blow his brains.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 30/12/2020 12:07

It beggars belief how they think that hurting animals and children will stop others from hunting foxes

It does yes, but that involves the ability to think rationally, and for some I'm not convinced it's there. As with other extremists the aggression and hatred come first and the hunts (or whoever else) are merely a convenient target - but this time with the cover of caring about some cute creature

I realise I'm sounding like a supporter of hunting and actually I'm anything but; it's just that I don't feel my dislike of something is sufficient reason in itself to demand that others stop doing it

Hoppinggreen · 30/12/2020 12:49

Vieve1325 you do realise that you can still do most of those things without anything dying horribly don’t you?

Boxofsaltsachets · 30/12/2020 13:10

Largely, anti hunting sentiment has nothing to do with animals and more to do with class. I've seen at least 4 comments here alone that say things along the lines of "Posh twats on horses"
And as for sabs, the ones I've encountered are so embroiled in the "Posh twats on horses" stereotype, they will pick on anyone who happens to be in the vicinity on the back of a horse. I know that because I have been victim to that, out for a quiet ride, on my own, and targeted by sabs because a hunt was in the vicinity. My horse had a huge bloke hanging off his bridle, hurting his mouth, distressing him, while another tried to grab my leg and pull me off. I wasn't dressed for hunting, wearing old jeans, short boots and a green coat, such experts in hunting should surely realise that is not the attire worn for hunting?! But no, they did this to me and my horse, alone, on a road, simply because I was riding a horse in the vicinity where a hunt was operating. I reported to the police, they weren't interested.
So even though I don't personally hunt, I'm definitely now anti sab. These people profess to love animals and want to protect them? By abusing other animals? Right.

Polkadotties · 30/12/2020 13:14

@Boxofsaltsachets that is horrific. I hope you and your horse were ok.
There was a viral video a good while back of a woman hitting a sab with her whip. If a sab attacked me or my horse I wouldn’t hesitate to belt them with my whip

Boxofsaltsachets · 30/12/2020 13:20

[quote Polkadotties]@Boxofsaltsachets that is horrific. I hope you and your horse were ok.
There was a viral video a good while back of a woman hitting a sab with her whip. If a sab attacked me or my horse I wouldn’t hesitate to belt them with my whip[/quote]
Yes it was a horrible experience, I didn't have a whip as I don't generally carry one, but I absolutely would have used it if I had had one.

Also wonder how many of these people up in arms about hunting set off fireworks in November, and plan to do so on Thursday? Putting their own enjoyment above the distress said fireworks are going to cause the foxes and other wildlife they're so passionate to protect? Stating it's tradition, legal and their right? Damned hypocrites.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 30/12/2020 13:22

@boxofsatchets It's terrifying isn't it. I've almost been dragged off a horse by sabs before (also was not part of the hunt) just riding and minding my own business. It always seems to be predominantly threatening young men too I've noticed, and they do seem to target women and children more from my personal experience.

I have a friend who's horse was so traumatised by the way the sabs yelled and grabbed at his bridle that he now will not even let men in his stable. It's so sad as he previously was a very calm and sweet horse.

QuestionableMouse · 30/12/2020 13:22

@GiveMyHeadPeaceffs

I was raised in the countryside and when I was younger the local hunt was very active. I'm in NI and tbh I didn't know anyone who wasn't wealthy that joined the hunt. It's not like kids from the local estate could just rock up and borrow a horse. It was a fairly exclusive clique. That's not "class warfare" it's just fact. Most were wealthy farmers but also members of the professional classes. I'm always somewhat confused about the arguments put forward to support hunting; countryside management, keeping people in jobs, etc. The local hunt employed 2 men who looked after the dogs, after that it was volunteers. Hardly a massive employment opportunity. Killing one fox is not going to stop chickens getting killed, it really isn't. I really can't get my head around anyone being pro-hunting based on all the available information out there. The local hunt I'm referring to is long gone thankfully but hunting with hounds is still legal in NI but hopefully a private members Bill will help put an end to it here.
I'm iffy on hunting but it's not just direct employment. It's feed and hay and bedding for the horses, farrier visits, vet visits, feed and supplies for the hounds. Probably even more things too. They all contribute to the local economy.
CuriousaboutSamphire · 30/12/2020 13:26

That could have been my neighbour about 3 years ago.

She was walking her horse back from the main group, giving her young horse some space, when she was approached by a sab who started shouting and grabbing at the reins. She smacked him round the shoulders with her crop and told him to fuck off.

Sab's mate filmed the second half of the encounter. Hunt monitor saw but didn't manage to film the whole encounter. Police were present and told the sabs to disperse, they weren't required, which caused a huge shouting ruckus.

Film appeared on Facebook with a completely different story suggesting the horse rider had ridden down a number of uninvolved spectators!

It's that behaviour that undermines anything your average concerned person who wishes to protest may do!

Boxofsaltsachets · 30/12/2020 13:32

@CuntAmongstThePigeons

Yes it is. I'm not surprised, though saddened, at your friends horses reaction. Mine can be a bit of an arse when excited and after managing to free himself by going up then started fly bucking , sideways down the road as I wouldn't let him flee, because obviously galloping down a road would have put many more people in danger.
I did notice they gave his hind legs a wide berth then. I've never been so grateful to nearly get bucked off in all my life.
I'm a care worker who goes without lots of things to keep my horse, I scrimp and save and save money because I have a lot of experience, I do everything myself, keep him on a small and cheap yard without many amenities. I walk round looking like a tramp half the time as I'd rather have him than new clothes and expensive hair cuts, or the latest phone etc. He's also now retired due to arthritis, he's not going anywhere until it's his time, even though I can't ride any more. I'm about as far removed from the posh stereotype as you can get.

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