To find this revelation from an NHS carer shocking?

[Lizzie523]

I have a very vulnerable family member that I have not seen since covid. She is now in the late stages of alzheimers and have been starting to wonder if I will ever see her again.

Recently her carers had been visiting her whilst also going to look after a person with covid at the same time. Their highers up explicitly told them they must not inform us or other family members this was happening/the risk to her.

So far she has not caught covid but I dont feel confident about it not happening in future. AIBU to be beside myself with worry?

What does that mean @XingMing?

That us stupid people that dont know the procedures should have known this would be the case because it is so blatantly obvious? What is so tragic?

I think you do have the right to know OP. My grandmother who was in a care home died of covid which was very likely transmitted by one of her carers (external visitors were not allowed). The elderly are so vulnerable I think it is totally reasonable to expect extra precautions are taken and you clearly aren’t proposing asking about the medical records of certain individuals.

Ah you're actually only going on 2nd hand info? There's no actual confirmation, which there shouldn't have been...

@Gingerkittykat

How good is the PPE? Is it the same standard they would use in a Covid ward or is it a flimsy apron and mask?

A flimsy apron and mask (+ visor) is exactly what is being used on covid wards.

OP, I understand your anxiety. But, as others have said, you have no right to know anything about any other patients. And the simple reality is that all carers will - knowingly or unknowingly - be caring for people with Covid 19.

@Gingerkittykat I only get a flimsy apron and mask on my COVID ward so can't imagine community nursing getting anything better. At this point you should probably assume the carers are in contact with COVID each day. They cannot help the patients they are given, they need to provide intimate personal cares and will be following all handwashing/ PPE guidance. My worst fear is catching COVID, not knowing and passing it on to one of my negative patients. So I do what I can but I am only a human being and accept that I can minimise but not eradicate the risks. Your relative needs the care so there is no choice to be made. I think its naive to have believe carers can only work with certain 'clean' patients anyway. All patients are treated as if they may have the virus so all standard of care is the same. I appreciate it is worrying for you being so far away, the carers don't want your relative to catch it any more than you do.

@Lizzie523

I have a very vulnerable family member that I have not seen since covid. She is now in the late stages of alzheimers and have been starting to wonder if I will ever see her again.

Recently her carers had been visiting her whilst also going to look after a person with covid at the same time. Their highers up explicitly told them they must not inform us or other family members this was happening/the risk to her.

So far she has not caught covid but I dont feel confident about it not happening in future. AIBU to be beside myself with worry?

YANBU to be worried, but YABU to think that this could be avoided or that you should be told specific information. You are within your rights to ask about what PPE the carers are using and about their covid risk assessment. But, unless you cancel these carers and privately employ your own who will be only working with your relative, then there is nothing you can do.

I'm a NHS HCP working in the community. I wear PPE on all my visits, follow strict infection control procedures, and if I have a covid +ve client, I would book them as my last visit of the day, as others have said. If any of my other clients asked me if I was visiting covid +ve people,I would give them this information, that yes we do see +ve clients as part of our caseload (if I didn't have any, that we can but no one that I am aware of), as that would allow them to make an informed choice. I would not tell them any specifics or break any confidentiality guidelines. Nor would I be emotional, "concerned" or dramatic about it.

Surely the reason covid ward staff don't cross onto covid negative wards during shifts is because of the risk right?

You should have been given the choice to adjust the package to minimise transmission risks

Nat3kids I'm not sure at all that OP has the right to know legally, as she is neither the patient or the person with POA.

Unfortunately, the only way to be sure that all carers are virus-free (including flu etc) would be for then to be completely self-isolated from everyone else during the whole period they provide care,. and indeed from two weeks before. So no contact with their family, friends, no going outside at all. They would need to be paid 24/7 as that is the time they would be contracted to have no contact with other people.

This would involve a small team of carers either living in, or travelling only by their own personal car which no-one else uses to their place of work.

I'm honestly not sure how feasible it is to keep someone who needs round the clock care from other humans completely free from any viruses tbh, esp if they need medication delivered, may need a doctor to visit etc

@christinarossetti19

Lizzie523 sorry, I don't understand why the carer could lose her job? do you mean breaching confidentiality? If she didn't identify the person, I'm not sure that it would be.

It would be the same situation as in a care home with norovirus. It’s fine to state the home has a case - and indeed is notifiable, and would be posted on the front door of the building. But you can never disclose who has norovirus, except to certain nominated individuals. So long as the information wasn’t “Mrs/mr xyz has abc disease” then no breach.

We switch between both in my job. You wouldn’t know, we wouldn’t tell you.

They can go to the company providing the care but will more or less be told to source elsewhere if unhappy.

Surely the reason covid ward staff don't cross onto covid negative wards during shifts is because of the risk right?

Some secondary care staff do cross between red, amber and green zones. Every day. It’s not possible to duplicate every role.

Nothing surprises me tbh....

I was told to turn the track and trace app off at work, as apparently a plastic apron (that only covered part of the front of my uniform), paper mask, and gloves protects myself from catching and transmitting the virus to patients.

My role was in the community visiting patients homes with no where to wash my hands ect, sitting on patients sofas and driving from and to peoples homes. So there was a lot of potential for spreading the virus across the community, they wouldn’t have cared if a patient was covid positive and I’d have been expected to carry on simply due to staff shortages....

One thing I would say, if your relative has visits from the NHS as opposed to private health care providers, we treat every patient as though they are covid positive, so wear the PPE deemed appropriate. If we have ECV clients, we try our utmost to see them before going to someone with a known covid infection. This isn't always possible though if the person who is covid positive requires time specific medication such as insulin. In community care teams, the clients are either completely housebound or ECV, so hopefully the risk of transmission is significantly reduced.

@slipperywhensparticus

Surely the reason covid ward staff don't cross onto covid negative wards during shifts is because of the risk right?

You should have been given the choice to adjust the package to minimise transmission risks

It doesn't work like that in the community. The number of (known) positive cases will be so small, that it's not possible to have a dedicated set of staff to visit them only. Carer, DNs, therapists, GPs etc. We have to see everybody. We behave as though everyone we see has covid, because a lot of the time we wouldn't have a clue, unless they have symptoms or a +ve diagnosis. I've had a lot of clients turn down face to face input from me over the last 9 months because of this risk. That is their choice.

Bargebill19 yes that's what I thought. It's identifying the person that would be a breach.

OP, the carer may well have been vaccinated by now, meaning (s)he wouldn’t be a virus-carrier, so long as there was no contact with surfaces (eg PPE, disinfectant, etc). And the carer is likely to be very keen to avoid picking upCoronavirus from a client for their own well-being, so will be being ultra-careful. The risk might be much lower than you think.

In my DF care home, staff are tested weekly, as well as PPE and now vaccine. Of course there’s a risk, but given that some people with the virus need care, it’s a bit much to think that someone on a zero-hours, minimum wage job is going to want to work with CV- positive patients exclusively.

In reality, your options are (a) do the caring yourself, or (b) pay for a live-in carer privately, or (c) make sure the safeguards (you might be able to push for a carer who has had the CV vaccine, not sure you’d get very far but worth a punt) are adequate and hope for the best.

I think @XingMing was being supportive - saying that this virus is such a tragedy for so many vulnerable people who need daily support from other humans because it is so, so contagious.

@Spaceprincess

What worries me about this is that they are talking about other service users medical history to you.

But they’re not saying who the patient is so I don’t see that confidentiality is being broken?

The other arguement is that the OP and her relative should have this information so they can make an informed decision if they want to continue receiving care or not?

@SaltyAF

But OP, if you feel your relative is at risk from the carer, you accept that the carer is at risk themselves. Why is that ok?

I suppose its easier to accept the risk to a younger person who is fit and well enough to work that to a sick person over 80 who could likely die from it. Also I dgaf about 99% of the people on this planet, but my own nan, well I care about her and I expect the OP is the same.

@Bythehairywartsonmywitchychin

Nothing surprises me tbh....

I was told to turn the track and trace app off at work, as apparently a plastic apron (that only covered part of the front of my uniform), paper mask, and gloves protects myself from catching and transmitting the virus to patients.

My role was in the community visiting patients homes with no where to wash my hands ect, sitting on patients sofas and driving from and to peoples homes. So there was a lot of potential for spreading the virus across the community, they wouldn’t have cared if a patient was covid positive and I’d have been expected to carry on simply due to staff shortages....

If you are wearing the correct PPE and following infection control procedures properly, then you are not "spreading the virus all over". That is just scaremongering. If you in someone's home, wearing the correct PPE, then you don't need to be contacted by Test and Trace via the app. That's because when you were with the person who later tested positive, you had PPE to prevent you getting infected.

@slipperywhensparticus

Surely the reason covid ward staff don't cross onto covid negative wards during shifts is because of the risk right?

You should have been given the choice to adjust the package to minimise transmission risks

We can’t even keep the covid positive and covid negative patients on separate wards anymore. There’s covid positive patients in the same bays as covid negative patients at some hospitals.

I can understand it's distressing but at the same time I don't know why it would be a shock to you.

There's not enough care out there especially in care agencies. People can wait weeks and weeks for a package of care to come up.

As long as they are wearing the right PPE and following hygiene protocols then it shouldn't be a problem.

They shouldn't be discussing other service users to you anyway

Our district nurse team go to Covid patients and non covid. We don't have the staff to have different teams, so we wear PPE and work as if every patient we see has it.

Is it only COVID that worries you OP? What about other prevalent infectious diseases? Hep B, Hep C, HIV, flu, TB, meningitis...they’re all out there in the community, do you need to know about those too? Where do you draw the line? Do you need to know about other patient’s conditions on the same ward you might be staying on because it’ll be the same team treating you? As PPs have said, it is right thy you don’t know.

I understand that it’s hard. I’m also worried about never seeing relatives again. It’s a tragic situation but this isn’t the battle that needs to be fought here

@christinarossetti19

Bargebill19 yes that's what I thought. It's identifying the person that would be a breach.

In a nut shell. Yes.

• I lost my job because I dared to challenge the wisdom of knowingly accepting covid positive patients into a covid negative home. Zero ppe and no way of isolating any resident.

You can guess what happened.