May Hope and History Rhyme (Trump#116)

[lionheart]

With thanks to Seamus Heaney for inspiring the President Elect.

"History says, don't hope
On this side of the grave.
But then, once in a lifetime
The longed-for tidal wave
Of justice can rise up,
And hope and history rhyme."

www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/12/donald-trump-hope-hicks-fulbright-appointments

He really is quite disgusting isn't he...

But can someone explain about Charlie Kushner? He has served time in prison for his crime. What does a pardon do? Wipe the slate clean like he'd never done anything wrong when everyone knows he has...?

There is discussion in articles I've read that all these pardons clash with DOJ standards. But is there anything that can be done. Because if not, there needs to be an overhaul of the checks and balances...

Adam Schiff sums it up in his tweet 'Lawless until the bitter end'.

No, it doesn't wipe the slate clean. It's supposedly a dig at Chris Christie (former Trump pal), who prosecuted CK.

A pat on the back for Jared? How grateful will the Kushners be to see CK's criminal history illuminated in this way?

He is certainly desperate to exercise whatever power is left to him because that's all he has.

apnews.com/article/donald-trump-politics-defense-policy-bills-babbd8bbce66db1b1b28b0f4f3cb3f13

All about Jared and his father, an interesting read...

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/08/how-jared-kushner-became-trumps-most-dangerous-enabler/615169/

The good son. Jared is Trump's most dangerous enabler

The Hope Hicks/Pam Bondi type of 'appointment' - are they actual "can't be changed" positions or just nominations? i.e. not necessarily going to be accepted by the institutions in question?

Some of the other stuff he's done - e.g. the drilling etc - surely Biden can reverse that with an edict of his own?

As far as I know, presidential pardons haven't been tested in court.

We already know a presidents powers are limited by the constitution, so there a school of thought that pardons might be too - especially if they are overbroad or affect an ongoing case where other defendants can no longer be tried.

Also the pardon does not negate the courts verdict. Just the sentence. So if public opinion takes against the pardoned scumbags and insists on referring to them as "convicted criminal " then there's not much they can do about it, except learn to deal with it. They can't sue for libel, slander or defamation.

The real victim here is the US itself. Hard to lecture the rest of the world about corruption and the rule of law when you don't follow it yourself. I feel most sorry for anyone who's spent the last 10 years trying to fight the ISIS ideology of the West being corrupt and outside the rule of law. Because that's pretty much been pissed away.

To be honest, if you were to suggest that Trump was being paid by ISIS to help a recruitment drive, and you stopped and said "If that were the case, what would it look like ?" then you'd pretty much come up with what's happening.

The only good thing is tourism is fucked for the next decade, so fewer people at risk on holiday. Not so good for locals.

If someone is pardoned, is it for specific 'crimes', that are listed or a general catch-all?
And if they carry on offending, can they be prosecuted for further crimes or does the pardon extend to those?

@Flavabobble

If someone is pardoned, is it for specific 'crimes', that are listed or a general catch-all? And if they carry on offending, can they be prosecuted for further crimes or does the pardon extend to those?

Once again all untested by the courts.

One thing people need to watch is the definition the US has invented for "conspiracy". Because it's entirely possible that someone pardoned for an offence in the past could still be prosecuted if elements of that offence are continuing even without their knowledge. Which could apply to Trump himself, if he manages to secure a pardon from President Pence (the only way I can see it happening).

@Flavabobble

If someone is pardoned, is it for specific 'crimes', that are listed or a general catch-all? And if they carry on offending, can they be prosecuted for further crimes or does the pardon extend to those?

They can be for specific crimes named in the pardon (X offense only but not for any other convictions) or they can be general (every past conviction) or pre-emptive (crimes committed, convictions, and/or those that haven't been discovered ).

Nixon's was a pre-emptive pardon. I think that the pardons Scrotus has granted are specific pardons. That is, pardons for specific convictions but not for crimes not yet discovered (if any).

A pre-emptive pardon isn't a 'get out of jail free for life' card for future crimes. The 'pre-emptive' part means that crimes committed before the pardon but discovered after are also pardoned.

No, it doesn't wipe the slate clean. It's supposedly a dig at Chris Christie (former Trump pal), who prosecuted CK

I was wondering about why this pardon too, lion so thanks for the potential explanation.

I wondered if he was either still on some time of parole or if perhaps due to his convictions there are some type of restrictions on his ability to carry out his business(es). Lots of financial felonies carry life-long prohibitions on the types of businesses or finances you can be involved in. I wonder if this pardon removes those restrictions.

@TheNorthWestPawsage

The Hope Hicks/Pam Bondi type of 'appointment' - are they actual "can't be changed" positions or just nominations? i.e. not necessarily going to be accepted by the institutions in question?

Some of the other stuff he's done - e.g. the drilling etc - surely Biden can reverse that with an edict of his own?

I wish that when this shit happens (appointments, EOs, whatever the fuck it is he's done now) the news would say whether or not Biden has the ability to revoke them.

They could just say 'these appointments/orders/shitshows are considered revokable by a future president' or 'would need legislative action to revoke' or something alone these lines.

Trump's father didn't get a pardon for any crimes, but he is still a notorious scumbag.

I did read somewhere that a pardon might enable someone (CK) to apply for million dollar bank loans that they would be unable to access otherwise. I'm not sure how much sense this makes because a bank could still turn down a loan application, pardon or no.

Here is something on how pardons have been challenged in the past:

www.justsecurity.org/73976/pardongate-2-0-prosecutors-and-congress-investigated-clintons-pardons-the-same-should-happen-to-trump/

Well I've finished my work and officially clocked off for Christmas so may be partaken soon... so incase the excitement gets too much I just want to say Merry Christmas etc. to all you nasty lovely Mumsnetters wherever you may be.

We persisted and maybe we'll be rewarded again on Jan 5th in Georgia.

In the meantime, let's hope Mar a Lago gets a power cut for a few days...

Surely lying on oath is obstruction of justice?

Sorry; posted prematurely. lionheart's link specifically mentions pardons not applying if obstruction of justice is involved.

"Third, the offering or granting of pardons may violate generally applicable criminal laws, such as federal laws prohibiting bribery or obstruction of justice."

Happy Christmas North.

[quote Mittens030869]@maggiethecat Unfortunately, I wouldn't put anything past Trump right now. [/quote]
www.businessinsider.com/trump-pardons-stephanie-mohr-released-dog-on-homeless-man-2020-12?r=US&IR=T

Echoing NorthWest, a very Merry Christmas to all you lovely people on this thread.
You have been a source of amusement, information, and support.
I will raise a glass or four to you all tonight.
Here's to a more stable 2021
[

I do find it funny that so far the only actual voter fraud pointed out by the Trump campaign that's been found to be true in this election seems to have been that of the man called Bruce Bartman who got a ballot for his dead mother as well as for himself. He is being prosecuted in Pennsylvania.

He used both ballots to vote for Trump.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Sorry; posted prematurely. lionheart's link specifically mentions pardons not applying if obstruction of justice is involved.

"Third, the offering or granting of pardons may violate generally applicable criminal laws, such as federal laws prohibiting bribery or obstruction of justice."

It means it's illegal to offer a pardon as a bribe or to obstruct justice. But you can be pardoned for doing it.

And a merry merry and a happy happy to one and all. 🎄🎄🎄🍾🍾🍾🥂🥂🥂🍰🍰🍰

God bless us, every one.

It means it's illegal to offer a pardon as a bribe or to obstruct justice. But you can be pardoned for doing it.

Drat.

A quiet and peaceful Christmas to all. Well we can hope...🎄

Happy Christmas everyone 🎄🎅