So I had this conversation and I find it so weird...

[mopsy2]

Before I start let me say in advance it involves the gay community/same sex couples and so on.
I NC for this as I wanted to keep it separate from my usual chats.

Was catching up with a male friend I haven't spoken to in a while on video call last night. Lots of random subjects being brought up and he mentioned how an European country is passing legislation to stop same sex couples from adopting children and they have also apparently not legalised same sex marriages. He agreed with it and I opposed and the conversation went as follows:

Me: I don't understand how you can be opposed to people marrying who they love /making a family/adopting a child that needs a home.
Him: It's wrong, they can be together but should keep it to themselves, gay men are attracted to penises so if they adopt a boy they might be attracted to him when he's older.
Me (thinking WTF in my head): that's paedophiles, you are talking about paedophiles. Would you be attracted to your DD?
Him: no I know what I'm talking about she's blood relation it's different!
Me: so in your logic if you were ever to adopt a child like you said you've always wanted and it was a girl you might be attracted to her as she grows up since you are straight and attracted to females?
Him (clearly disgusted) : no of course not!

The conversation went down the route of how he wouldn't really like it if there was a gay married couple involved in his community/with a child at his DCs school as they get "all these ideas" and kids get confused and "don't know if they're boys or girls". I told him that he's now talking about gender not sexual preference. It was clear from the way he was speaking that in his head gay people bring some sort of harm to their surroundings but when pressed has no actual examples or valid points. He thinks only a man and a woman should be raising a child otherwise it's unnatural...

The conversation basically ended with him not having many points to back up his views after I asked for specifics and meekly saying how "maybe there's no harm in it but I don't want to see it" and me basically wondering why I got involved in this conversation and stayed on the call for this long.

AIBU to be completely surprised how these opinions are still being held by educated young people in 2020?
Or am I too liberal to not see anything wrong with same sex marriage of adoption?

Am I massively out of touch with today's realities? Does the majority still hold these views?

[quote imamearcat]@crosstalk well that's not ideal either! I just think mums are a bit different. Everyone needs a mum. Sorry if that's sexist or homophobic but that's just what I think. [/quote]
Why? What can a mum do that a dad can't?

Do you also think that everyone needs a dad?

I think that in general, a lot of people are not very good at forming a coherent argument about anything.

It doesn't tend to be partisan either, you'd probably find people with equally silly arguments for the things you guys were talking about.

As for how they acquire whatever their views are, if they can't think straight. Some just get them from the people around them. Some actually have them for better reasons but they are crappy at articulating them. Quite a lot intuit them - it's about how they feel. Sometimes they have some sensible intuitions but then they kind of go astray, or go far of course, when they try and put them into some logical form.

As far as gay marriage - while the dominant view now is that it ok, that is in part because society as a whole has changed it's basic view of marriage. You will still find people who believe the older view is the more basic reality, and there are gay people who take that view as well, not all are for SSM. So while it may be a minority opinion, it's probably worth considering that it isn't always simply based on prejudice.

The pedophile thing comes from a few different places I think. One, which is sounds like maybe your friend is repeating, comes out of the fact that homosexuality was once considered socially unacceptable. People felt that people who were willing to transgress social boundaries might be willing to transgress other social boundaries. There can be some truth in that, but the context isn this case is pretty debatable for several reasons.

The other issue I think is that there is a lot of confusion about what paedophilic includes - basically, pre-pubescent children. It doesn't include teens, but often the word is used in a broad way, including teenagers. Some people have tended to conflate teen males in the gay scene (which many would agree is problematic, and plenty of gay men aren't interested in that, but it's been tolerated) with gay men being paedophiles. There have been a few public scandals where they tended to be conflated, for example. Then, there have been groups like PIE, who very much tried to ride in on the coattails of the gay rights movement, and that influenced people's thinking too.

Its nothing new, and its sadly not surprising, some people choose to be ignorant and unpleasant. On this very thread someone has called gay men peadophiles, yet pretended they don’t think gay people are peadophiles. There have been previous threads on MN where more than poster has said that gay men shouldn’t have children because we obviously only want to be parents so we can sexually abuse children. Odd that they don’t seem to mind straight parents abusing their children.

I have a rugby tots franchise, a few regular parents left when I took it over and told the previous owner that they had to leave as their boys would no longer be safe. Yet the parent who also had a daughter had managed perfectly fine when a straight man was the owner, but obviously they’re not homophobic, oh no. Just as people are never racist and never ever sexist.

People do however come out with some cracking comments, humans will always amaze me, I’ve heard some gems and we enjoy sharing them at our adoption group.

I’ve had
“Are you raising him to be gay?” Oh yeah, he goes to gay sunday school

“How will he know to be straight?” So do they think my parents taught me how to be gay?

“Where did you get him from?” Waitrose

“Its a shame he hasn’t got a normal family” Said by a lady at nursery who is a life coach who also sells juice+

“Who is his real dad?” Like, am I imaginary?

“Do you like putting sudocrem on his genitals?” Said by an actual medical professional

“I hope mine isn’t gay” ah, so do I with a parent like you

None parenting unwelcome comments

“You can’t be gay you play rugby” so i’m either pretending to play rugby or pretending to be gay?

“Are Asians allowed to be gay?” nope, completely banned

“Do the other men (in the changing room) know you’re gay (implying I’m a perv)” I mean yeah, I dress entirely in rainbow print and I make a point of looking at their genitals while they shower

“You’d be better off dead, you’re dead to me blah blah blah” thanks mum, oh yeah, that you know straight ideal parent and a mum, because every child needs a mum

“What a waste” ah yes, because you believe my relationship isn’t as worthy as a straight one

“Who is the woman?” There isn’t one, thats literally the point

“I’m sleeping bum down tonight” ah, lovely colleague I had to share a hotel room with, if only you knew that I’m not attracted to thick ugly men with bad breath, sadly it isn’t your lucky night

“Are you a top or a bottom” should I start asking straight people if they spit or swallow or if they go down on their girlfriends?

“ooo your all really seedy” yeah, having a loving, healthy, monogamous relationship is fairly seedy

“You don’t sound/look gay” how does gay look/sound

“How do you know you’re gay if you haven’t had sex with a woman?” Always said by people who didn’t have sex with someone of the same sex to check to see if they were really straight

“No offence but/I’m not homophobic but

“I don’t hate gays, but they just shove it in our faces” ah yes, because we never witness any straightness in society

“Whats the gay lifestyle like?” What exactly is that?

“OMG I’ve never been to a gay bar/gay club/gay wedding etc” erm we aren’t a zoo exhibit for your entertainment

“I wouldn’t let your types near my kids” Ah yes, because I’ll clearly put my penis in them

@Crustmasiscoming

I'd say a lot of people hold those views, as in they dont actively hate gay people, but find it all a bit distasteful so it should be hidden away, or vague confusion about what gay actually means.

I'd agree with this, but it's ironic really because it's only uncomfortable for them because they're spending too much time imagining what those people do when they are alone in bed together. Imagine admitting to that lol. They're the ones being distasteful.

I’m always fascinated by people who are fascinated at what we do in bed, like I’m on MN and he’s snoring, we’re fairly wild.

Plus isn’t it you know, the gay men who think about other guys doing sexual stuff and isn’t it the gay women who think about other women doing sexual stuff...

I find it totally and utterly depressing that in 2020 some people are still homophobic.

Legislation is in Hungary.

Free speech gives everyone the right to be an idiot, whether they're a homophobe or a TRA. You don't have any obligation to listen, tho'.

Some extremely religious people won’t accept gay couples. It defeats their ideological view that a man and a woman should marry, not two of the same sex.

In some countries it’s illegal to be gay, so if doesn’t surprise me that that not allowing same sex couples to adopt follows suit.

It’s terrible in this day and age people hold such hostile views. You can’t help who you fall in love with and who cares, what does it matter to anyone really.

It’s sad the way same sex couples have to fight for everything.

So your friend thinks if you adopt a boy your going to abuse him because your gay? So with the same logic if your a straight sex couple and adopt a girl the man will be an abuser as he will clearly fancy her. God some folks are truly stupid...

OP, on your next round of discussions you may want to use the following -

That "unnatural" argument is completely baseless. As someone with a postgrad degree not only in evolutionary biology, but specifically sex, I can assure you that many, many animals, not just humans, show same-sex or mixed (i.e. bisexual/biromantic) preferences both for sexual activity and long-term pair bonding. In addition same-sex animal parents adopt offspring and raise them perfectly successfully. There is even evidence that having a same-sex uncle or aunt also increases their niece/nephew's chances of survival.

It is absolutely natural.

I wonder if your friend's beliefs come from fear. I've lately realised that the things I dislike stem from fear. I recognise that I now fear men. I fear authorities. I fear a few things actually. Women's rights, gay rights, black rights are lost around the world day by day. It was hard to build some form of equality but easy to bring down. Perhaps your friend fears what he believes the reality of gay men adopting to be. Maybe it makes his reality less grand in a way.

Well trump did say he'd date his daughter i think these types of people have weird views and like to project them onto gays

@Sinful8

Well trump did say he'd date his daughter i think these types of people have weird views and like to project them onto gays

Eughhhh gawddd *heave* 🤮

He could not be my friend! So unenlightened!

Look, if thats his view he is entitled to it, what makes you think only your opinion is valid, are we now going to have the woke thought police

He didn't just think it, he voiced it!

And he's awful for thinking or voicing, thick, stupid and bigoted.

No doubt reads the daily Mail.

Yep that guy clearly is a total homophobe..I think a surprising number of people find difference distasteful and lump homosexuality in with that. For some reason they aren't able to see that it's not really that different from (for example) me finding plenty of heterosexual sexual practices a bit gross. It's just personal preferences and we are all different.

My only comment would be that I do feel its important in same sex couples who adopt that there's a strong relationship available for the child with a person of the other gender - eg an involved grandparent/aunt/uncle/godparent. A friend is lesbian and she and her wife seem to live a bubble occupied only with women, they rarely socialise with men or even with heterosexual couples, neither has a brother, only her wife's father is alive & they are NC with him. I do wonder how that might impact their child longer term.

Because there are things eg about your body changing in puberty etc and I think it's important that children a) have someone they feel comfortable asking questions and b) see good/healthy behaviours model regularly by people of both sexes - body positivity, attitudes towards health/wellness, attitude towards the other sex etc.

It's just too conflicting remaining friends with people who hold those views. I can put up with a lot of stuff people say, views opposed to mine, and still maintain a friendship of a sort. But when opposing views and healthy debate drift into that realm of heinous intolerance, I can't remain friends.
You have to live in truth, OP. This friend of yours is entitled to his opinion. I wholly believe that. He is allowed to voice it too! But he has shown you who he is. You don't have to maintain a friendship with him and listen to his opinions.
Sometimes, it's too much to ask of our conscience. And by remaining friends with such a person, imo, it's weakening support and tolerance for people in need of it. The vast majority of the world is homophobic. In the west, we live in a bubble. Look at Russia and the Middle East, for example. In other parts of the world, LGBT rights are 'tolerated', not for the sake of tolerance itself but because there's sex trade tourism to maintain (criminalised in private, profited from in public or vice versa, you decide). But these are the countries where children are also exploited, so the idea of LGBT rights is utterly laughable.

I, regrettably, have a situation where I'm seen as racist by a small group of mums at my child's school because I absolutely dropped this group like hot potatoes after their views on autism, mental health, and homosexuality became mainstream conversation to the point where I felt I was part of some enforced conversion to their church of thought. They all come from a particular region of the world where homosexuality is a death sentence and their brand of faith abhors anyone 'less than'... so, this includes my aunt and her wife, my sister in law's sister, the same-sex couples at our kids' school, my autistic child... I just went utterly cold and don't even give them the time of day. Sadly, they just assume I don't like them because of who they think they are, nice women from a respectable culture. They have no idea that my total rejection of their company is because of what they represent. I owe them an explanation, I suppose. But there you go. That abhorrent school of thought is alive and well among parents in my own West London primary school. We have a long way to go.

I think it’s old fashioned to say that children need a mother figure/father figure. The qualities a mother is supposed to bring to the table can be bought by a man, the same with women being father figures. I’m sure there’s research done on this, I remember reading it years ago when I was facing having a baby and the dad didn’t want to know (I actually needed up having a miscarriage).

If I remember correctly they found that it didn’t matter whether you had two dads/mums, one of each, or a single parent it didn’t matter as long as you had money. Outcomes for children with rich single parents or gay parents to were much better than those from poor heterosexual families.

If I remember correctly they found that it didn’t matter whether you had two dads/mums, one of each, or a single parent it didn’t matter as long as you had money. Outcomes for children with rich single parents or gay parents to were much better than those from poor heterosexual families.

Depressing as hell, but very true. A lot of those stats that get thrown around disparaging single parent households are actually clouded by the fact that they tend to have less money. It often tends to come down to money. And I don't see anyone shouting that poor people shouldn't be having children, yet apparently it's fine to say that gay people shouldn't? Gross.

Ultimately kids needs love and stability. It doesn't matter if it comes from one or two parents, nor does it matter about the gender or sexuality of those parents.

One of my ex in laws firmly believes that in a few decades children who were adopted by gay couples will be suing local authorities and the government for allowing same sex couple adoption. He's very stupid though and I have no respect whatsoever for any word that comes out of his mouth.

@SimonJT

Its nothing new, and its sadly not surprising, some people choose to be ignorant and unpleasant. On this very thread someone has called gay men peadophiles, yet pretended they don’t think gay people are peadophiles. There have been previous threads on MN where more than poster has said that gay men shouldn’t have children because we obviously only want to be parents so we can sexually abuse children. Odd that they don’t seem to mind straight parents abusing their children.

I have a rugby tots franchise, a few regular parents left when I took it over and told the previous owner that they had to leave as their boys would no longer be safe. Yet the parent who also had a daughter had managed perfectly fine when a straight man was the owner, but obviously they’re not homophobic, oh no. Just as people are never racist and never ever sexist.

People do however come out with some cracking comments, humans will always amaze me, I’ve heard some gems and we enjoy sharing them at our adoption group.

I’ve had
“Are you raising him to be gay?” Oh yeah, he goes to gay sunday school

“How will he know to be straight?” So do they think my parents taught me how to be gay?

“Where did you get him from?” Waitrose

“Its a shame he hasn’t got a normal family” Said by a lady at nursery who is a life coach who also sells juice+

“Who is his real dad?” Like, am I imaginary?

“Do you like putting sudocrem on his genitals?” Said by an actual medical professional

“I hope mine isn’t gay” ah, so do I with a parent like you

None parenting unwelcome comments

“You can’t be gay you play rugby” so i’m either pretending to play rugby or pretending to be gay?

“Are Asians allowed to be gay?” nope, completely banned

“Do the other men (in the changing room) know you’re gay (implying I’m a perv)” I mean yeah, I dress entirely in rainbow print and I make a point of looking at their genitals while they shower

“You’d be better off dead, you’re dead to me blah blah blah” thanks mum, oh yeah, that you know straight ideal parent and a mum, because every child needs a mum

“What a waste” ah yes, because you believe my relationship isn’t as worthy as a straight one

“Who is the woman?” There isn’t one, thats literally the point

“I’m sleeping bum down tonight” ah, lovely colleague I had to share a hotel room with, if only you knew that I’m not attracted to thick ugly men with bad breath, sadly it isn’t your lucky night

“Are you a top or a bottom” should I start asking straight people if they spit or swallow or if they go down on their girlfriends?

“ooo your all really seedy” yeah, having a loving, healthy, monogamous relationship is fairly seedy

“You don’t sound/look gay” how does gay look/sound

“How do you know you’re gay if you haven’t had sex with a woman?” Always said by people who didn’t have sex with someone of the same sex to check to see if they were really straight

“No offence but/I’m not homophobic but

“I don’t hate gays, but they just shove it in our faces” ah yes, because we never witness any straightness in society

“Whats the gay lifestyle like?” What exactly is that?

“OMG I’ve never been to a gay bar/gay club/gay wedding etc” erm we aren’t a zoo exhibit for your entertainment

“I wouldn’t let your types near my kids” Ah yes, because I’ll clearly put my penis in them

I'm sorry you've had to listen to such a load of awful remarks from ignorant people.

Sadly lots of people still hold bigoted views like this. Someone my DH works with is just like this, he ‘doesn’t mind if people are gay but doesn’t want it to be shoved in his face’. By this he means he is uncomfortable seeing gay people show any sort of affection either in public or on TV/films. DH challenges him all of the time, he also doesn’t agree with BLM because ‘all lives matter’ .

You will find bigoted, ignorant idiots all over the world. It’s so shit in 2020 but there you go.

@Nowaynothappening

Sadly lots of people still hold bigoted views like this. Someone my DH works with is just like this, he ‘doesn’t mind if people are gay but doesn’t want it to be shoved in his face’. By this he means he is uncomfortable seeing gay people show any sort of affection either in public or on TV/films. DH challenges him all of the time, he also doesn’t agree with BLM because ‘all lives matter’ .

You will find bigoted, ignorant idiots all over the world. It’s so shit in 2020 but there you go.

This is the problem. Lots of people on this thread have quite rightly said that everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the problem appears when people live those opinions, they speak them, the educate their kids based on their opinion. And then the world doesn't change. I still have to hide my relationship from some people. I have to put up with people asking if we're sisters. People (men, not all men) still think being a lesbian is designed for their entertainment. I have to be careful on the train when a drunk notices our wedding rings and we're not friendly enough on our responses to the invasive questions. And lots of other stuff, because people are entitled to their opinion and live and breathe it.

@Nowaynothappening

Sadly lots of people still hold bigoted views like this. Someone my DH works with is just like this, he ‘doesn’t mind if people are gay but doesn’t want it to be shoved in his face’. By this he means he is uncomfortable seeing gay people show any sort of affection either in public or on TV/films. DH challenges him all of the time, he also doesn’t agree with BLM because ‘all lives matter’ .

You will find bigoted, ignorant idiots all over the world. It’s so shit in 2020 but there you go.

They’re stupid aren’t they. They fail to realise that the only sexuality shoved in anyones face is heterosexuality.

Sad that twats like him still exist.