To choose new area to live based on grammar schools

[2021hopes]

I’m at a point where I can relocate to pretty much wherever I would like but stuck where to start. I have two primary age children and I’m a full time working professional but can work from home a lot. Need to get into city of London maybe 8-10 times a month.

I’ve lived in London all my life. Would ideally like to stay in the leafier parts, also happy to consider Surrey and Kent too. Would love outstanding schools and ideally plenty of grammar school options. Somewhere safe with things for us to do at the weekends and holidays.

A three bedroom semi or detached would be fab. I’m happy to try new builds too. Please help wise people of mumsnet where should we move too!

Why are you concerned about a grammar school? It's honestly not that great.

I went to a grammar in Kent, knew a few from other grammers in the area too.
It's massively competitive and a lot of pressure. It was academic. I don't feel like I came out well rounded at all. I'm very anxious and obediant though! It did get me a weekend job in retails because 'the grammar girls always do as their told'.

Literally, noone cares that I went to a grammar school in my career now. I'm a professional on a great wage. This is the same for DH who is also grammar educated from a very well respected school.

We live in herts now, no grammar schools but we happily live in catchment of a few great secondary schools with really different outlooks.

My DC have attended comprehensives in a gritty enough area of S London and gained top results for very competitive courses at very well regarded RG Unis. All their classmates who went for Oxbridge got in.

Top sets in comprehensives do very well by their students.

While offering sets of a lower learning pace for those that need it.

In Yr 2 and 3 you have no idea, really, what direction your kids will go in.

There is no way I would let the location of Grammar schools be the major criteria for my choice of a place to live.

Good schools overall, good public transport, rail networks, great opportunities in terms of music, theatre, dance, sport, outdoor pursuits. A very good regional hospital. All far more important to a well rounded thriving teen than a grammar school, IMO.

I’m in south bucks, the grammars are good and the other secondary school closest is outstanding if they don’t pass 11+.
This house is in a lovely area

( www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/76180686?utm_campaign=property-details&utm_content=buying&utm_medium=sharing&utm_source=copytoclipboard )

I'm not sure but for that house the closest catchment school may well be the Khalsa school which is not very desirable at all, the Beaconsfield School (Ofsted good - was requires improvement), Chalfont Community College (Ofsted good). Which is the Outstanding one? If Khalsa is indeed the catchment school from there there will be no free transport to the other schools and the distances are tight. It's not quite my area so I may be wrong about which are the catchment schools (it might be CCC from there) but I can't think of an outstanding one (Amersham is also "good" but I don't think you'd get in from there).

South Warwickshire down to Oxon border might suit. Grammars here are VERY competitive but do exist if your child really is very clever. Good private and state options too.

London by train is just over an hour from Warwick Parkway or a bit less from Bicester.

South Woodford has grammar and is leafy but
I passed the 11+ but the local grammar was not right for me , I got much happier and useful education from local comp

Not every Grammar right for every child
No guarantee they would get in and in some areas the alternative school is nit good

Having been through the 11+ system in Bucks I would avoid! It’s stressful and awful to be defining children as failures at 10. I have a very able (top of the top set in maths) summer born boy. But English isn’t his forte. He didn’t pass, along with lots of other bright and able children.

It’s an awful system.
I’ve accepted he’ll probably come out with more confidence at the local secondary modern and maybe wouldn’t cope with the stress and pressure of grammar. Really think hard about it. Certain children thrive at grammar school but many wouldn’t.

Bit of a risk - distant family members did this assuming their children were “bright” then the oldest didn’t get in! Now they have 3 children at different schools as middle one did get in. It’s a right old mess.

I went to a comprehensive in Kent (not sure what all this secondary modern stuff is about - there are plenty of comprehensives in Kent, they just are light at the top end of the ability scale because the grammars take all the bright kids).

I passed the 11+ but parents/teachers felt I probably wasn't academic enough to go to a grammar at 11. And I probably wasn't. By 14 though, I definitely was academic enough, and was then stuck at a school that didn't run triple science or higher maths, and no compulsory language. The overall year group really lacked much desire to work or achieve and as a result I genuinely thought that my B grades were fine, because I was comfortably in the top 10 in the year.

This was 20 years ago - I hope that things are different but its still such an awful in/out decision to make at a really young age. Its affected my entire life. I wouldn't move back to Kent and this is one of the main reasons. I second what everyone else says about moving to an area with good comprehensives.

We moved near a good single sex comp with best results in the county. Both girls very happy and we supplement sport with external clubs. So glad we avoided the exam and judgment at 11 can’t imagine seeking that out. Stressful.

I think the edge of Bromley/Chislehurst would be good. Access to the super selectives in Bromley if very clever or the Bexley Grammars as close enough. The rest of Bromley has a good selection of schools - some better than others.

Also easy train ride to London, safe and green. Nice restaurants etc in Choslehurst, shopping centres in Bromley and Eltham.

sheepissheep I went to a comprehensive in Kent (not sure what all this secondary modern stuff is about - there are plenty of comprehensives in Kent, they just are light at the top end of the ability scale because the grammars take all the bright kids).

A true comp takes properly from across the ability range. 'Comps' in areas that run a full grammar system where 20%+ are creamed off are comps in name but not comps like in other areas of the country.

As you said they are light at the top end. When that happens:

• the bright kids that choose not to go to grammar have fewer peers
• triple science is less likely to be offered as not enough take up
• 2 MFL is less likely to be offered as not enough take up
• kids with skewed profiles are less likely to be well catered for

YANBU to move to a grammar school area however, assuming you can't afford to go private, you also need to carefully choose where to live based also on what state schools would be availabel to your dcs if they don't get into a grammar school (you need to be in an area where it is not a complete disaster if they attend the local non-selective). Some areas of Bromley are good for that.

Sheep " a school that didn't run triple science or higher maths, and no compulsory language. The overall year group really lacked much desire to work or achieve and as a result I genuinely thought that my B grades were fine, because I was comfortably in the top 10 in the year".

That's the 'secondary modern' stuff!

My kids' Comprehensives offer Triple science, a choice of 3 MFL plus Mandarin , Latin. Put kids in for Maths Challenges, many types of competition. Debating, dance, chemistry analysis, All kids are pushed and inspired whatever ability level, and the Progress 8 as well as the actual results in proportion to the ability of the cohort are great.

And yes, it is still the same in Kent - a poster here had a child who just missed a grammar place and was stuck in a school with no triple science and everything you describe - despite being a bright kid with the potential to do well.

Even in their hayday Grammars were divisive and didn't fulfil the dream of social mobility that they promised - though were arguably kore successful than now when tutoring etc is so prevalent.

SW Herts consortium were considering the removal of guaranteed sibling entry so you might want to investigate this.

Some great suggestions here and I appreciate everyone’s replies. It seems good schools over grammars are the preference. Amenities, safety and a varied community is really important. The kids will only be in school for a short while before they fly the nest and I will be left there so I have to be happy to.

So the areas jumping out so far are which seem to have all of these are:

Sutton
Bromley/Chistlehurst
SW Herts/ St Albans
Chelmsford and neighbouring

I love the sound of Hampshire but think it may just be a little too far out. I have to look a bit more and visit!

2021 - glad its helped you narrow down your options!

Teenplustwenties and Newyearnewplumbing - thanks for your input, I realise I didn't actually make the point that comps in grammar areas don't function like normal comps though that was what I was getting at.

I teach in a grammar but am looking to move out of the area before my own children reach secondary age. I love my job but I don't think the school is right for my kids. A good comprehensive would be a much better experience for them.

Gloucesterhire has some good grammars and the train into London is about 90 minutes.

How about Gloucester. 4 grammars in the city, 3 others in the county.

@Dumbie where roughly in Herts are you? As you said you are near great secondaries and seem happy there. Do you think your schooling helped you into your career and opened doors for you? I know it’s not the bee all and end all as I have managed the same without grammar schooling but I am interested to know.

@NewYearNewPlumbing where do you live roughly? Those schools sound fantastic! Do you like the area also?

@DipSwimSwoosh I’d love to know why you have decided that? Do the grammars fit a certain personality other than academic and competitive? What is that personality that will thrive there?

@peaceanddove thanks for the honest reply. If you had your time again would you still send them or choose a different school? What area are you in and you like it?

I’m sure your teens will be overjoyed with the atlas and globe for Christmas 🤣

@2021hopes

Thanks *@pisspants* never considered Bucks but been mentioned a few times now. Not sure if it’s too far out but worth looking into.

@oldshoeuk I do prioritise education over pubs . What is your experience of private school? Are they really snobby and elitist? Unfortunately my professional favours those privately educated but I was not and do not feel I am looked down upon by my peers (only maybe behind my back 🤔)

My experience of private schools:

Nothing I expected turned out to be true.

We fall into the bracket of qualifying for a 100% bursary in terms of income (pretty poor). Most of the parents are somewhere in the "really can't afford this" group. The ethnic/cultural mix is well above average. I would say the common link is that we prioritise education over everything else. We pay full fee and it is hard but we adjusted.

There are some hidden costs such as school uniform, lab coat, sports gear but we are not having to buy a polo pony or anything daft like that.

Primary and Junior schooling were state for us and we were very happy with that. Outside of school the majority of his friends are state educated. We don't "look down" on state schoolers and we certainly aren't aware of anyone in the school looking down on us.

What impresses us about the school?

Amazing facilities across all the subjects, equipment, buildings etc
Class sizes go from small to tiny in later years
Teaching confidence and responsibility seems to really be a thing
Food is superb
Too many school clubs to mention, well over 50
Feels like a family
Discipline is tight, late with a piece of homework, that's detention
The end of year results speak for themselves, it's high attaining, high pressure.
You absolutely don't have to be sports mad (won't harm if you are)

In short, we looked at the 15-18 year olds who the school were churning out and if our son turns out like one of them I will feel like I've tried my best for his education. I firmly believe that education leads to options, options = happiness. I could be wrong, no certainties in this life...

I have no issue with state schools, I have lots of guilt as I don't approve of the private or grammar system, I'm just playing the game as it is, hypocrite that I am.

[quote 2021hopes]@peaceanddove thanks for the honest reply. If you had your time again would you still send them or choose a different school? What area are you in and you like it?

I’m sure your teens will be overjoyed with the atlas and globe for Christmas 🤣[/quote]
You're welcome. Yes, I would still send my children to the grammar, even knowing what I know now. The problem is that the grammars here cream off the top 20% so there really isn't a viable alternative if you value your child's education.

I don't think my schooling opened any doors for me, nor any of my school mates.
But perhaps it helped with my social mobility - I'm from a very poor background and likely wouldn't have gone to university had the school not had that expectation. But I don't think that's really useful for you.

There are lots of lovely leafy parts of Hertfordshire with good schools, Letchworth, Hitchin, Ware, Hertford, Welwyn, Harpenden, St Albans. Most have very short commutes into London.