To choose new area to live based on grammar schools

[2021hopes]

I’m at a point where I can relocate to pretty much wherever I would like but stuck where to start. I have two primary age children and I’m a full time working professional but can work from home a lot. Need to get into city of London maybe 8-10 times a month.

I’ve lived in London all my life. Would ideally like to stay in the leafier parts, also happy to consider Surrey and Kent too. Would love outstanding schools and ideally plenty of grammar school options. Somewhere safe with things for us to do at the weekends and holidays.

A three bedroom semi or detached would be fab. I’m happy to try new builds too. Please help wise people of mumsnet where should we move too!

@Ilovepancakes6 and @KarlKennedysDurianFruit I’m familiar with the parts of Essex you mentioned and also worked in Chelmsford 15+ years ago. I might go back and see how it’s changed. Spent many a time in Leigh and Southend so pretty sure whilst it’s nice not sure I could live there, maybe a bit to quiet. Chelmsford I will look at again!

You would have to research the schools, visit them, ask questions about pastoral care, sports facilities, read policies, ask other parents about pupil /teacher relationships etc. It all depends what you are looking for for your DC. Grammars can have all the above as well but they can also be exam factories.

We moved to Leigh on Sea for the schools about 13 years ago.

It's a lovely place to live ( voted the UK's happiest town a couple of times in recent years ). I would never describe it as too quiet though as we have lots of nice restaurants and bars and boutique style shopping. It has fantastic community spirit too which has been really highlighted during the pandemic.

The primary schools are very good ( I think one is still rated outstanding ) and in my children's year groups approx 40-50% went on go on to attend one of the grammar schools. The rest have a choice of a good local academy , an outstanding academy a 10 min drive away if they pass a selection test for sports or performing arts and another school in nearby Benfleet that has an entrance test.

There isn't the feeling that if you don't pass the 11plus you are doomed forever. One of mine passed and the other didn't even take it but both are in great schools.

Hampshire is reputed to have excellent comprehensives.

I wouldn’t move to a full grammar area like Kent because if your child doesn’t get in your option is a high school from which all the higher achieving kids are missing.

So if your mathematically-able, STEM-keen child missed out on a grammar place due to being a summer born boy for whom VR is not yet their strong point, they could well find themselves in a school that does not do the full triple science curriculum.

Same for a talented linguist who struggles with maths: not make the grade on the maths orientated section of the 11+ , and end up in a school with no MFL choice.

I would go with a good comprehensive that does well by all it’s students.

Grammars’ results generally simply reflect the cohort. Kent’s overall performance is no better than any other county, so the grammar system doesn’t achieve a lot.

Thanks @AngelsWithSilverWings interesting info. I think I will investigate Leigh a bit more. I have always liked it when we visited. Compared to London anywhere will seem quieter but that’s also what I want to move towards . Transport links are good into town.

Very useful point about checking county wide results @RainingBatsAndFrogs I never thought to check county wide but will do. Seems the results will be interesting. Well performing county as a whole indicates well performing schools with some anomalies to be expected.

As I’m prepared to move out of area and county this will be important. I was looking at areas with outstanding secondaries as well as the grammars (as all parents do) and need good primaries for the time being also...triple whammy! I’ll look at Hampshire too as never considered it

@2021hopes if you are anything like me my only experience of Leigh before we looked into it properly was the beach and the Old Town. Whilst that is lovely , I had never explored the The Broadway or Leigh Rd area of the town. It always has a nice buzz about it and hasn't suffered like other high streets have as there are so many little independent retailers and restaurant and coffee shops. I won't lie - parking can be a challenge which is why I tend to walk everywhere if I can!

There are so many areas and it is so hard. I mentioned Watford. I live further into London than that and I think technically my area has comprehensives although people choose to go to Watford grammar from here and other schools - all kinds including right into London for state sixth forms even (or into London for Westminster school). In other words I think we are quite good for in London, schooling out here or further out into Herts (my daughter went to school in Herts for example -Haberdashers and her sister Edgware - North London Collegiate - those are private schools). I just like the choice out here - we are on the Met line. I don't want to get more specific than that.

Thanks @Xenia. What is your experience of private schools if you don’t mind me asking? Would you choose it again?

Also what are the primaries and comprehensives like in Herts? I am somewhat familiar with Herts as visited as a child and have fond memories.

You are right it’s hard to narrow down when you have lots of options open to you and few constraints. A nice dilemma!

[quote 2021hopes]@Tootsietootie that’s interesting. I didn’t know the grammars left such a bad legacy for the other schools. And yes I didn’t think how the kids would be judged if they didn’t get in by those who did. So what was the experience for those of your children that didn’t?[/quote]
You might find this interesting (article on research from Durham Uni.on grammar schools) :
www.dur.ac.uk/research/news/thoughtleadership/?itemno=34192

North Kent has grammar schools in Dartford, Gravesend and Medway and is definitely more multicultural area than some other area. The downside is a lot of the non-grammar schools aren't great.

I went to a state grammar school but it was much less stressful living in an area with good non-selective schools when ds came along. Hampshire has some of the best comprehensives in the country and may be worth a look.

Bromley has very good comps, super selective & access to the kent grammars. For private school there are also a few good options (Eltham & Dulwich college easy distance)
Easy access to central London, fairly multicultural, reasonable high street & shops, lots of parks.

Sutton and Bromley have grammars. They also are close enough to good private schools if your DCs don't get into the grammars.

Are your DCs really bright? How old are they - have you started tutoring? Are you really aware of how competitive it really is to get into the super-selective grammars?

I would choose private schools again. In fact my younger sons' private school is majority not white not just because of where we live but because parents wanting to help their child who might otherwise be disadvantaged find it does help. Also in the case of our London borough a lot of people are either immigrants or first or second generation so are perhaps keener on a good education than others. On the other hand we have reasonable state schools too so quite a few move around. My son's classmate moved from private prep to Watford grammar for example at 11+. Others moved from my sons' private secondary school to state school for sixth form. The main issue is cost - there is no point in anyone bankrupting themselves for something they can get free of charge eg we did not pay fees other than 15% for my older son from age 4 - 12 as his father taught at the same private school and also we could afford school fees for our daughters as I am a lawyer etc and work full time.

"Also what are the primaries and comprehensives like in Herts? I am somewhat familiar with Herts as visited as a child and have fond memories". we don't live in Herts but my daughter had friends there. quite a few people went to her school at 11+ (Haberdashers private school) who had been at state schools until then. We did look at moving out to Herts for the countryside etc but never did in the end.

St Albans has a lot of outstanding primaries and secondaries, and it is a non-selective system so almost all the kids are at a handful of schools. Parmiters in Watford is partially selective and I know several from here who go there. Good links to London, and you can get into the countryside easily. Depends on your house budget but a 3 bed is doable I think.

I'm in the SW Herts consortium area. DD is at one of the consortium secondaries.

The non consortium secondaries are generally good. There is only one that I would refuse to send her to. All seem to be good academically and pastorally. All are multi cultural and inclusive.

The only downside can be that there aren't enough spaces for the children to be confident they'll get their local school. This obviously differs according to the birth rate of the year groups your DC are in, but it's been a nightmare for a few years recently. If DD hadn't scored high enough to get into a consortium school, she would have been allocated a school about 8 miles away via 2 public transport changes and making her school day 7am-5.30, with homework and extra curricular activities on top of that.

Primary schools are generally good. Lots have plenty of outdoor space (which was important to us) and are active and visible in the local community.

I went to grammar school and whilst I do appreciate the education I got, I’m now an anxious professional who bases her self- worth almost entirely on academics and job performance. Despite being a doctor, being well thought of in appraisals, doing lots of quality improvement work, happily married and homeowner in my twenties I often feel like I’ve underachieved, like unless I’m the top of my field and doing ground breaking research I’m actually not good enough. I’m constantly comparing myself negatively to others and feel I should be doing a masters or phd in my spare time.

That’s just me but actually the story is the same from lots of people I know who were in the system- people who are solicitors etc but because they are not criminal barristers they feel like they failed.

I was also incredibly socially awkward...

I’m planning on sending my children to the local comprehensive so they can be more rounded. I’d rather they be happier and less focussed on attainment.

I came on to say just simplify the whole thing and move to Hampshire, but I see someone else has said that.

None of the ridiculous 11+ stress. A child can be ace at Maths but rubbish at English and have both needs met in the same school. Room for late developers.

For example in Hants, Winchester-Chandlers Ford-Romsey triangle. A bunch of great comps and a couple of excellent A level 6th forms, plus colleges with other offers. Lots of excellent comps outside this area though!

NB. Hants state schools don't have 6th forms (a very few exceptions). This has its pros and cons. (Main pro - pupils have to make active choices as to what to do next, not just do whatever school offers, main con - 6th form teachers don't know your child already, and the freedom can be too much for the less mature)

@nancy75 and @Seeline thanks. I had been looking into Bromley and surrounding due to the links into Kent but still London and leafy. I worked in Bromley about 10 years ago and liked it. Will go back and see how it’s fared.

@seeline DC in years 2&3 so we have time. I have nephews and nieces who have been to grammars and also many work colleagues whose children have and also gone into private. I have a fair idea of the competition but will learn on the job I suppose as many other parents. Good schools over grammar schools will be the deciding factor and even then schools is not my first priority. The area has to be right and safe foremost. I will do my best to keep a level head!

Are your kids particularly academic? picking where to live based on grammar school puts a hell of a lot of pressure on your kids, especially if they're not.
Not saying its a bad thing, but I would prioritise other things you have mentioned such as a balanced and mixed community, access to green spaces and things to do on a weekend, sports and interest clubs etc that will keep their childhood happy and be more likely to shape them into successful well-rounded adults than a grammar school

I seem to have missed a whole load of replies!

@TheNanny23 thank you and I sympathise. I’m a professional like you mention and my area is competitive and burn out is rife. I think when you work in professions which are so regulated and have such high standards many people feel not good enough. I can’t imagine there is a person who hasn’t felt that . However, I would be lying if I said my profession isn’t dominated by predominantly white, male, privately educated and grammar schooled alumni. As with many professions I’m led to believe. I don’t agree with it but It opens certain doors as many professions are still an old boys network. There is a certain element of playing the game to have a chance. But I will prioritise where I think they will thrive, be happy and succeed above whether the school is grammar or not.

Personally I would choose somewhere with good comprehensives, but with the possibility to access a grammar (if that's what you feel is right for your DC.)

In your position, I'd consider Wokingham area. Lots of good secondary options, and the possibility of the Reading grammar schools too. Some good private schools in the area too.
Excellent access to London on 2 different lines, so you're not stuck even if there are signalling problems or engineering works.

Hmmm, we moved to this area purely because of the access to single sex grammar schools. DH and I were huge exponents of the grammar system, because DH excelled at his grammar and I was privately educated. Luckily, both our teens passed the 11+, ended up with amazing GCSEs and are both now in the sixth form.

So, on paper, being grammar schooled has really benefitted them academically but only on paper, literally their exam certificates. In reality, the grammar school was an Exam Factory and turned them into Superlative Exam Passing Machines.

As far as I can tell, there was very little learned about a love of learning, or encouraging an openly enquiring mind? Basically, if the knowledge wasn't of direct benefit to them, in a test or exam, my teens weren't that interested in knowing it. But, my God, they know the exam marking schemes back to front, and have had exam technique drilled into them on a daily basis. Their exam answers are pitch perfect, not a wasted word or calculation. They're robots. Exam robots.

Yet, despite their brilliant exam results, neither of our teens could reliably point to bloody Austria on a map! And, recently the younger teen (very likely to go to Oxbridge or LSE) asked me if Queen Victoria had any children! But, presumably this information was never necessary in a test or exam, so was irrelevant.

On a side note, I have just bought them the DK Childrens' Atlas and a fucking, illuminated globe for Xmas. And, we're going to have fucking lessons

Another voice here for looking in Hampshire where the state schools are all fabulous.
I see Winchester and Chandlers Ford have already been mentioned but also look at Alresford, Alton and Petersfield.