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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that if you are going to present intelligent design to children as fact there should be some indication of this?

209 replies

ArmadilloDaMan · 22/10/2007 16:08

Took ds to a zoo today. As it was half term they were running some extra events.

One was a talk on the animals with the chance to bottle feed lambs and to stroke an alligator. So we went.

It was a detailed talk on different kinds of farm animals and things like crops (they are also a working farm) and well aimed to cover all ages of children.

So far so good. Me and dp thought it was a little odd when they showed a donkey and said the cross was the result of Jesus (you probably know the story) and then the slide show changed from pictures of animals to crosses on a hill in the sunset. They presented it as fact rather than an idea, but we thought no more than odd.

Then they started discussing how chickens grow in an egg (with live chicken, baby chick and egg along with slides). All fine (well the picture on the screen of a live chick next to one lying down with the caption - live body, dead body, both the same body- but they didn't talk about it adn the children were too interested in the chicken trying to escape).

However then he started talking about DNA and genomes. And how they are obviously designed. Therefore there must be a designer and that designer is God. Talked for a few minutes on the subject.

As we went around other areas of zoo there were posters on 'why men and apes are not related' and other such topics, but mostly you would need a GCSE level in science to even start to understand them, so again not too bothered about that (anyone of that age knows enough to make their own mind up).

However there is no indication on the advertising stuff that they are even a christian organisation, let alone one that believes in intelligent design. And if like us you did not go into the undercover areas until the talk you would have no idea.

So AIBU to think that they should at least promote this on their leaflets so people are aware and can choose whether or not they want their children introduced to this as fact before they go?

OP posts:
harpsicorpsecarrier · 25/10/2007 16:02

Suebaroo you are a very sensible Christian
besides the creationism thing natch

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 25/10/2007 16:05

oh, honestly harpsi, once you believe an all-powerful God died and rose again, 6 day-creation is nothing at all

DeathByPruners · 25/10/2007 16:15

lolol Sue

I've heard the fossils are the work of Satan thing - teacher at dh's school (the one where the old bugger princes went) was a right one for that. DH now evolutionary biologist.

WestCountryLass · 25/10/2007 17:33

The funy thing is I live near there and have been once and I didn't even notice the mission :paranoid though I did say to my husband there were a lot of Christian playgroups there (as all the Mums I exchanged words with were from 'such and such' Christian playgroup).

DeathByPruners · 25/10/2007 19:11

Loads of playgroups are christian, though
Fills a huge social need, imo

seeker · 26/10/2007 06:40

I have absolutely no problem with Christian-based activities if they say openly what they are. I really don't know why Christians are allowed to get away with the sort of"stealth" evangelizing that would have everybody up in arms if it was muslims or socialists or homosexuals!

Some examples. Our local Baptist Church runs holiday play schemes. I'm sure they are very good - the posters cetainly look excellent. But you have to read the whole poster, right down to the small print at the bottom before you discover that it it a church based scheme.

My daughter went to a "moving on" workshop in year 6. Very good -thoughtful -fun. She was given a book "to look at later" Book has lots of case studies of children saying things like"I was worried about being bullied in Secondary school, but I knew that if I took my worries to Jesus, everything would be all right"

And those are just two examples. I could go on. And if the children get a book that suggests it might be all right if Jenny lives with Eric and Martin(showing my age here!) all hell breaks loose!

morningpaper · 26/10/2007 09:11

lol @ stealth evangelising by homosexuals

how does that work?

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 26/10/2007 10:48

'Stealth' evangelizing by homosexuals. pmsl

But I know what you mean, seeker, about Christian groups. Having said that, just because an event is run by Christians, it doesn't mean the aim is evangelization, and more than any other activity Christians do. There are other aspects to the faith, like generally being helpful and kind and that sort of thing.

seeker · 26/10/2007 11:37

Sorry - it was early! What I meant was that there are always people ready to accuse others of having an "agenda" in lots of areas - but Christianity seems to be exempt. I only used homosexuality as an example because of the whole Section 28 controversy. There were/are people who think that mentioning gay lifestyles in a positive light constitutes "promoting" it,a nd wan

seeker · 26/10/2007 11:39

Sorry - it was early! What I meant was that there are always people ready to accuse others of having an "agenda" in lots of areas - but Christianity seems to be exempt. I only used homosexuality as an example because of the whole Section 28 controversy. There were/are people who think that mentioning gay lifestyles in a positive light constitutes "promoting" it,and therefore shouldn't be done. These people are barking mad, in my considered scientific opinion, but they exist! So some subliminal messages are OK - and some aren't.

SueBarooeeooeeooooo · 26/10/2007 12:18

Are you saying that being gay isn't catching? I thought you became gay if you had fluoride added to the water...

Blandmum · 26/10/2007 12:27

the DVD sent to schools for use in Science lessons was rather sneaky.

There was nothing in the bumf to show that it supported ID, which is simply not science. It was crap 'science' so i binned it.

Using it would be rather like taking kids French in a German lesson and telling them it was French!

I have no ishoos with schools teaching creationism myths (or creationism if you are that way inclined ) but the place for them is in RE lessons, not in science.

justaboutdrippingblood · 26/10/2007 12:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeathByPruners · 26/10/2007 17:10

The playgroup thing, though: I've always thought of it as Christian outreach or something, rather than evangelising. I went to a big one, and they always made it clear that there would be a talk/activity thing for children, and it had a Christian theme, but thereafter it was a free-for-all, basically. I just arrived late.
Sure, if I tried to snatch ten minutes alone for a coffee, I often got talked to by a member of the team running it. I'm fairly sure they assumed I was sad and lonely! I never got evangelised to/at/for(?) so I have to assume that was not the aim.
It was one of the best facilities around for small children and their parents, and I think a good example of what Christianity is about (as I understand it).
I am an atheist, but I like that kind of Christianity...you know, do something good for the community, be open and welcoming to all sorts of people.

seeker · 26/10/2007 19:44

Absolutely - the sort of playgroup pruners talks about it fine. More than fine - it's a real life example of what my grandmother called "salvation by works not faith alone" But what about the sort of workshop I talked about earlier? I'll cut and paste - hang on.

My daughter went to a "moving on" workshop in year 6. Very good -thoughtful -fun. She was given a book "to look at later" Book has lots of case studies of children saying things like"I was worried about being bullied in Secondary school, but I knew that if I took my worries to Jesus, everything would be all right"

onebadmother · 26/10/2007 20:32

ur absolutely nbu!!
Outrageous! And agree, I'd hate to give my money to these mentalists.
Teacher of my ds, who's 5, said to me at parent's evening that she was a little surprised at how firmly he expressed 'God doesn't exist' when they went on a nature walk and she started the conversation (!) where does it all come from. Seemed to imply that he was being intolerant of the Muslims and Christians in his class... She, I happen to know, is a 7th Day Adventist...

I sooo wish I'd said, well, we are an Atheist family. Would you expect a 5 yo Muslim child not to be firm about Allah? Or a Christian child about Jesus? And actually, for your fricking info, we've given him his choice of all the options, which is probably a lot more than most religious kids get.

Sorry to hijack, but still feryoooming!!

DeathByPruners · 26/10/2007 20:33

yy seeker that would have made me exceedingly cross.

Actually, that is a massive understatement. The mere idea of that happening, the underhandedness and cynicism, makes me want to explode with fury. I can see a case for wanting to let people know that faith is there and that, look, we find it really gives our lives meaning, and you might too (adverts on buses? etc) - but slipping it into children's lives by deliberately targeting them at a vulnerable time in their lives is heinous.

onebadmother · 26/10/2007 21:00

Absolutely dbp.

And does anyone else have a problem wiht Atheism not being discussed in Primary? FFS we have every other pov more than adequately represented..

Really fed up, this isn't even a church school, why does any of it have to be 'celebrated'? |Can't it just be explained?

onebadmother · 26/10/2007 21:01

in fact so pissed off I think I'm going to start another AIBU thread..

seeker · 26/10/2007 21:05

I'm all for celebrations - Christmas, Dwali, Eid, Oak Apple Day, St Patrick's Day, Beltane, Rosh Hoshana, Nelson's Birthday, Samhain, Chinese New Year - if they worked at it, schools could have a party every week! But I think they should all be given equal weight, and that children in a state school should learn about Christianity, not learn to do it.

onebadmother · 26/10/2007 21:19

lol at a party every week seeker. You're right that would be a lovely thing!

But - what would us atheists do?? A God Doesn't Exist day?? What would that involve exactly?

I know! 'today we celebrate the fact that we are rational and welcome others to be rational too'

Damn! That's dull.

CassandraMT · 26/10/2007 21:22

GCSE level in psudo-science more like. loons

seeker · 26/10/2007 21:23

Nmm, I sse the problem. I don't suppose you'd fancy being a pagan every now and then, would you? I suppose not - it's just another theistic religion really isn't it?

A while ago I tried to start a "Stand up for the Enlightemment" movement, but was defeated byt he apathy of my friends and family. What about celebrating Descartes' birthday? Or whay about Internation Richard Dawkins Day?

onebadmother · 26/10/2007 21:41

Brilliant! Enlightenment Week! We could have a play when all the children stand in the dark on a stage, and then one by one they all join MY CHILD!!! in a spotlight of rationality.

harpsicorpsecarrier · 26/10/2007 21:43

obm genius!
seeker, I like the cut of your gib