to think that if you are going to present intelligent design to children as fact there should be some indication of this?

[ArmadilloDaMan]

Took ds to a zoo today. As it was half term they were running some extra events.

One was a talk on the animals with the chance to bottle feed lambs and to stroke an alligator. So we went.

It was a detailed talk on different kinds of farm animals and things like crops (they are also a working farm) and well aimed to cover all ages of children.

So far so good. Me and dp thought it was a little odd when they showed a donkey and said the cross was the result of Jesus (you probably know the story) and then the slide show changed from pictures of animals to crosses on a hill in the sunset. They presented it as fact rather than an idea, but we thought no more than odd.

Then they started discussing how chickens grow in an egg (with live chicken, baby chick and egg along with slides). All fine (well the picture on the screen of a live chick next to one lying down with the caption - live body, dead body, both the same body- but they didn't talk about it adn the children were too interested in the chicken trying to escape).

However then he started talking about DNA and genomes. And how they are obviously designed. Therefore there must be a designer and that designer is God. Talked for a few minutes on the subject.

As we went around other areas of zoo there were posters on 'why men and apes are not related' and other such topics, but mostly you would need a GCSE level in science to even start to understand them, so again not too bothered about that (anyone of that age knows enough to make their own mind up).

However there is no indication on the advertising stuff that they are even a christian organisation, let alone one that believes in intelligent design. And if like us you did not go into the undercover areas until the talk you would have no idea.

So AIBU to think that they should at least promote this on their leaflets so people are aware and can choose whether or not they want their children introduced to this as fact before they go?

I think that the creationists are very keen on targetting children via the education system. If you were to look on the TES website for example, many science teachers complain they are bombarded with free educational material from various groups.

I would actually go there again. Apart from the talk (and ignoring the posters, which were amusing), it is a wonderful place. Ds is to young to understnad any of this for the moment.

However I think they should be upfront about the ideas they are promoting. Other people would be disgusted (a few did walk out from the limited view I had) and definately with older children I know many who do not want their children exposed to these ideas.

People can choose to pay and avoid the talks (we didn't check out any of the other ones they had going on), but they should be given that choice.

I'm sure I've seen local papers discussing the creationalist views of the owner.

It's not a disgusting idea though is it? You might not agree with it but it's not like listening to a talk by the BNP.

That's not the point. What is the point is that they are not exactly being upfront about their ideas so that people know what to expect before they visit and can then make an informed decision about whether to take their child

I think it's quite interesting to present another viewpoint to children, balancing out what they get taught in school.

I think it's quite good value for money to see the animals and presentations etc. I didn't actually even notice any of the creationalist stuff when I went there.

they let you stroke an alligator! i'm on the next bus

Message withdrawn

theres a missing link in the evolution theory too isn't there - it too is preented as fact

in that its always true that man evolved from apes...except they cant really prove it...really.

just before you all smack me across the face ( i know you non smacking lot - itching for violence)

i would like to say i believe that humans evolved.

am not thinking that god had a great idea one day when he was bored and plonked us here.

belgo - it is always interesting to hear other points of view. But they should be presented as religious ideas not facts.

As for balancing out what they learn in school - what do you mean? The theory of ID is the belief of a small minority of one of the worlds religions. It is not a balanced alternative to the theory of Evolution.

Message withdrawn

I know, I know, most Christians believe in evolution, at least in this country. But I would twitch away from anywhere called 'Noah's Ark'. But then I'm a twitchy sort of athiest.

Message withdrawn

is science really just one big hypothosis?

there is a christian organisation that has sent 'scence lesson ' materials out to all the schools in the country. the DVD actiually promotes 'ID' which is not science, but faith. While I have no issue with ID and other creation stories being taught in schools in RE lessons, ID has no place in science lessons.

and fwiw worth both the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterburt support Evolution rather than ID!

custy the difference with a scientific hypothesis is that you aim to test it. If your results don't support your hypothesis, you look for another answer and test that one, and so on.

ID says,' we can how explain how this evolves, therfore God did it' Not testable. Not science

custy you say 'in that its always true that man evolved from apes...except they cant really prove it...really. '

Evolutionary scientists don't say we evolved from apes. Apes and humans evolved from a common ancester.

This sort of deception is what gets my goat about certain Christian Organisations. Wear your colours on your sleeve, make it clear if there is one particular theory you are promoting. Cut the subtle slide shows.

My big bug bear is the sneaky methods of Scripture Union in schools. AT least I can decide not to take my children to Noah's Ark Zoo.

Message withdrawn

If I came across a poster at the zoo saying how "men and apes are not related" I'd go home and get my dp. "So much for 'intelligent design'!", I'd say, and fling him at their feet. Then I'd stride off with a toss of the head, the way I always do when I've won hands down.

Message withdrawn

Isn't religion just one big fairy tale?

I think I prefer the hypotheses, thanks.

Actually, the whole 'hypothesis' thing is what makes science strong - it's not based on what some weirdo in the desert wrote down however many thousands of years ago - it's based on what we know, as we know it. If you think some part of science is wrong, you can challenge it.

Oooh I know this place!!!

We took the rainbows there, its very much A Christian organisation (do they still ahve the display that showsw how Noah fitted in the animals eventhough the display doesn't even quite tie in with the Genesis version of the story?)

We had an incident last year where Creationism was taught at the school, I discussed volution wirh ds2 who went back and told teacher- who declared Mummy to be confused and wrong! Twas spitting, me! Should have sent him back in to ask her which particular Genesis creation story she adhered to and whether she hd any views on the story of Lilith (which is covered by the equivalent section of the Midrash and conveniently forgotten in Christian faith....)

Wow, it took me such a long time to find the ID stuff on that website.

This is me reading it: [mouth open so long in gobsmacked mode that drool falls onto the computer]

You know that pile of spaghetti?
That's their logic, that is.

Imagine, they get up every morning believing that crap; they believe it while they eat their breakfast; they believe it all through the morning; and when it's time to go to bed they STILL believe it. Amazing.

They dont just beliave it- the farm was set up expressly for the purpose of spreading the idea.
They risked everything for it!