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White House poker. Biden trumps Trump. (Trump thread #115)

965 replies

TheNorthWestPawsage · 01/12/2020 13:39

Here it is.
Thanks @BruceandNosh for the title.

And still we persist.

Previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4084369-Figures-Don-t-Lie-But-Liars-Do-Figure-Trump-thread-114?msgid=102240605#102240605

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 11:47

[quote lionheart]Humph.

thehill.com/homenews/senate/530199-senate-gop-warns-biden-against-picking-sally-yates-as-attorney-general[/quote]
The runoffs in Georgia are now key.

If good people do something, will good triumph ? Are there more shy Democrats than Republicans ?

SanFranBear · 15/12/2020 11:58

Not sure about the UK but in the US it's not unusual to give a child their mother's maiden name as a middle name

Bit behind the times but DS has my MILs maiden name as his middle name.. I thought it was a Scottish thing but perhaps just Celtic, with Joe's Irish roots and all Grin

EveryoneRevealsThemselves · 15/12/2020 11:59

Super article here.
nyti.ms/34dkX2k

Will paste it as I think it might be behind a pay wall:
Throughout Donald Trump’s presidency, there’s been an argument on the left over the sort of threat he poses.

The American left’s most famous figures — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Bernie Sanders, Noam Chomsky — saw Trump as an authoritarian who could, if re-elected, destroy American democracy for good. But another strain of left opinion viewed Trump’s fascistic gestures as almost purely performative, and believed his clumsiness in marshaling state power made him less dangerous than, say, George W. Bush.

A leading proponent of this position is the political theorist Corey Robin, author of an essential book about right-wing thought, “The Reactionary Mind: Conservatism From Edmund Burke to Sarah Palin.” In an interview with the left-wing publication Jewish Currents, he argued, “Compared to the Republican presidencies of Nixon, Reagan and George W. Bush, Trump’s was significantly less transformational, and its legacy is far less assured.”

The day when the Electoral College meets to ratify Joe Biden’s victory seems an appropriate one to revisit this debate. Trump tried, in his sloppy, chaotic way, to overturn the election, and much of his party, including the majority of Republicans in the House, and many state attorneys general, lined up behind him. Yet he failed, and it’s unlikely that he will follow calls from supporters, like his former national security Adviser Michael Flynn, to declare martial law.
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So what matters more, the president’s desire to overthrow American democracy, or his inability to follow through? Just how fascist was Trump?

Part of the answer depends on whether you’re evaluating Trump’s ideology or his ability to carry it out. It seems obvious enough that the spirit of Trumpism is fascistic, at least according to classic definitions of the term. In “The Nature of Fascism,” Roger Griffin described fascism’s “mobilizing vision” as “the national community rising phoenix-like after a period of encroaching decadence which all but destroyed it.” Translate this into the American vernacular and it sounds a lot like MAGA.
THE ARGUMENTListen to our podcast every Friday morning, with Ross Douthat and Michelle Goldberg
Fascism is obsessed with fears of victimization, humiliation and a decline, and a concomitant cult of strength. Fascists, wrote Robert O. Paxton in “The Anatomy of Fascism,” see “the need for authority by natural chiefs (always male), culminating in a national chieftain who alone is capable of incarnating the group’s historical destiny.” They believe in “the superiority of the leader’s instincts over abstract and universal reason.” This aptly describes Trump’s movement.

Yet Trump was only intermittently able to translate his movement into a government. The national security state was more often his antagonist than his tool. There were Justice Department investigations of the president’s political enemies, but they mostly came to nothing. The military was deployed against protesters, but only once.
Trump celebrated what may be the extrajudicial killing of Michael Reinoehl, an antifa activist wanted in a fatal shooting, but such killings weren’t the norm. He put children in cages, but was pressured to let them out. And in the end, he lost an election and will have to leave.

The damage he’s done, however, may be irreversible. On Twitter, Robin argued, correctly, that George W. Bush, far more than Trump, changed the shape of government, leaving behind the Patriot Act and the Department of Homeland Security. Most of Trump’s legacy, by contrast, is destruction — of even the pretense that the law should apply equally to ruler and ruled, of large parts of the Civil Service, of America’s standing in the world. (If mainstream liberals are more deeply horrified by Trump than some leftists, it could be because they maintain greater romantic attachments to the institutions he’s defiled.)

Most consequentially, Trump has eviscerated in America any common conception of reality. Other presidents sneered at the truth; a senior Bush official, widely believed to be Karl Rove, famously derided the “reality-based community” to the journalist Ron Suskind.

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But Trump’s ability to envelop his followers in a cocoon of lies is unparalleled. The Bush administration deceived the country to go to war in Iraq. It did not insist, after the invasion, that weapons of mass destruction had been found when they obviously were not. That’s why the country was able to reach a consensus that the war was a disaster.

No such consensus will be possible about Trump — not about his abuses of power, his calamitous response to the coronavirus, or his electoral defeat. He leaves behind a nation deranged.

The postmodern blood libel of QAnon will have adherents in Congress. Kyle Rittenhouse, a young man charged with killing Black Lives Matter protesters, is a right-wing folk hero. The Republican Party has become more hostile to democracy than ever. Both the Trump and Bush presidencies concluded with America a smoking ruin. Only Trump has ensured that nearly half the country doesn’t see it.

In May, Samuel Moyn predicted, in The New York Review of Books, that if Biden won, fears about American fascism would dissipate. Complacent in their restoration, he wrote, those who warned of fascism “will cordon off the interlude, as if it was ‘an accident in the factory,’ as Germans after World War II described their 12-year mistake.”
As American electors gathered — with the police offering armed guards and Michigan’s capitol closed by “credible threats of violence” — Moyn’s words, meant cynically, seem too optimistic. Trump failed to capture America, but he may have irrevocably broken it.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 12:04

I think part of the problem is too many people looking back at "how it used to be" with some sort of vague undefined thoughts as to how to get there (e.g. Brexit) when the hard reality of physics is that everything has to get older and decay.

I seems to be criminally easy to appropriate peoples desire for yesterday by lying to their desires and then pretty much getting away with murder.

So far the only solution nature has come up with is bigger wars to eliminate the base of people that affect the future.

War: it's nature. It's good for humanity, just bad for humans.

CaveMum · 15/12/2020 12:38

@SanFranBear

Not sure about the UK but in the US it's not unusual to give a child their mother's maiden name as a middle name

Bit behind the times but DS has my MILs maiden name as his middle name.. I thought it was a Scottish thing but perhaps just Celtic, with Joe's Irish roots and all Grin

Now you mention it @SanFranBear my grandfather was Scottish so that makes sense!
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 15/12/2020 12:56

My ex's family give the mother's maiden name as a middle name to the first son, father's mother's maiden name to the second son, and sons after those two get more and more distant female ancestors' maiden names.

And I used to know a man every one of whose male relations got the surname of the only member of that family who had ever amounted to anything as a a middle name.

SenecaFallsRedux · 15/12/2020 13:26

Quite a few US presidents have had family names as middle names:
both Bushes (Walker), William Jefferson Clinton, Ronald Wilson Reagan, Richard Milhous Nixon, Lyndon Baines Johnson, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Herbert Clark Hoover.

And going back a few years: James Spence Monroe, John Quincy Adams, James Knox Polk, Rutherford Birchard Hayes, William Howard Taft, and a few more.

Many of these were mother's maiden name.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 13:47

@SenecaFallsRedux

Quite a few US presidents have had family names as middle names: both Bushes (Walker), William Jefferson Clinton, Ronald Wilson Reagan, Richard Milhous Nixon, Lyndon Baines Johnson, John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Herbert Clark Hoover.

And going back a few years: James Spence Monroe, John Quincy Adams, James Knox Polk, Rutherford Birchard Hayes, William Howard Taft, and a few more.

Many of these were mother's maiden name.

Ulysses S. Grant Grin

There's a name that is surely due a revival ?

DuncinToffee · 15/12/2020 14:25

Nate Cohn @Nate_Cohn

A record-shattering first day of early voting in the Georgia runoff: 168k vote in-person yesterday, up from 136k on day one of in-person early voting for the general election

AcrossthePond55 · 15/12/2020 14:28

Ulysses S. Grant

There's a name that is surely due a revival ?

Presidential trivia: Grant's name was 'Hiram Ulysses Grant', although he was called Ulysses, not Hiram. The 'S' was due to an error by the Congressman who nominated him to West Point as "Ulysses S Grant". When Grant tried to correct the error the Army told him "We don't care what your name was, it is now Ulysses S Grant".

AcrossthePond55 · 15/12/2020 14:29

Did you know if you type 'Ulysses' enough times it starts to look weird and 'wrong'? Well, it does. Xmas Grin

DuncinToffee · 15/12/2020 14:32

He explains what this could mean in this thread twitter.com/Nate_Cohn/status/1338849757997969423?s=19

DuncinToffee · 15/12/2020 14:34
Grin
DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 14:35

@AcrossthePond55

Ulysses S. Grant

There's a name that is surely due a revival ?

Presidential trivia: Grant's name was 'Hiram Ulysses Grant', although he was called Ulysses, not Hiram. The 'S' was due to an error by the Congressman who nominated him to West Point as "Ulysses S Grant". When Grant tried to correct the error the Army told him "We don't care what your name was, it is now Ulysses S Grant".

I just remember that as a Trivia quiz question: "What does the S in Ulysses S Grant" stand for ?

Given there was a recent long running thread on "Atlas" as a (presumably) boys name, I see no reason why "Ulysses" shouldn't become a thing. Plenty of classical allusions (and a clear statement of where you stand the Greek/Roman argument on civilisations).

CaveMum · 15/12/2020 14:38

@AcrossthePond55

Did you know if you type 'Ulysses' enough times it starts to look weird and 'wrong'? Well, it does. Xmas Grin
Your absolutely right! I work in horse racing dealing with stallion registrations and one of the stallions I have to deal with is called Ulysses and every time I type his damn name I’m sure I’ve got it wrong!
CaveMum · 15/12/2020 14:39

Argh, grammar fail - You’re not Your Blush

DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 14:41

When rock was pretentious ...

CaveMum · 15/12/2020 14:42

I just remember that as a Trivia quiz question: "What does the S in Ulysses S Grant stand for?”

I love that, totally stealing it for the next quiz I’m asked to do (I did actually get asked to provide some West Wing questions for a recent quiz my husband was doing for work!)

DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 14:53

@CaveMum

I just remember that as a Trivia quiz question: "What does the S in Ulysses S Grant stand for?”

I love that, totally stealing it for the next quiz I’m asked to do (I did actually get asked to provide some West Wing questions for a recent quiz my husband was doing for work!)

It's not very UnGoogleable though.

Funnily enough, that was an informal design parameter of the IBM "Watson" AI engine. To be able to answer questions that couldn't be Googled.

AcrossthePond55 · 15/12/2020 15:15

McConnell just acknowledged that Biden/Harris won the election and offered them his congratulations. Referred to them as President & VP elect.

Live on MSNBC, from the floor of the Senate.

DGRossetti · 15/12/2020 15:19

@AcrossthePond55

McConnell just acknowledged that Biden/Harris won the election and offered them his congratulations. Referred to them as President & VP elect.

Live on MSNBC, from the floor of the Senate.

Maybe he's covering himself for a 50/50 senate ?
Soopermum1 · 15/12/2020 15:26

Hopefully he's promoting a sea change in the other Republican Senators to acknowledge and deal with reality

Soopermum1 · 15/12/2020 15:27

I'm really looking forward to the day in January when Pence has to declare the winner

AcrossthePond55 · 15/12/2020 15:29

Could be @DGRossetti .

But I think McConnell is a very 'political' animal and has known for a long time that after the EC vote would be the 'right' time to acknowledge the election and break with Scrotus. And that he should make it during a Senate session in his position as Majority Leader, rather than a hallway interview or a 'sources say' or a released statement.

He also apparently has always had a 'cordial' working relationship with Joe and I have a feeling he wants to keep it that way, 50/50 Senate or no. As infuriating as it probably was for Biden to hear him bloviating, I have a feeling Joe knows exactly why McConnell chose this particular moment to make a statement. Joe knows politics just as well as Mitch does. It may be why Joe has been more 'softly softly' in his criticism.

Now, we will wait for the outcry or 'traitor' from the far right and Scrotus. One thing I think Mitch has done is to underestimate his 'power' over the lunatic fringe that are Scrotus' most ardent fans. Even Moses bringing stone tablets down from Sinai won't convince them that the election wasn't 'stolen'. The only person who will convince them of that is Scrotus himself. Or maybe 'Q' or Alex Jones. 🙄

AcrossthePond55 · 15/12/2020 15:31

@Soopermum1

I'm really looking forward to the day in January when Pence has to declare the winner
heh heh. Me, too.

But first he has to officially 'receive the votes' on 23 Dec. Wouldn't surprise me if on 6 Jan he starts feeling his jacket pockets saying "I know they were in here somewhere!".

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