A telephone call I took at work has affected me.

[AnnListersBlister]

I won't say where I work for DPA/outing reasons(and uneccessary) but I had a call from a member of hospital staff detailing a situation where;

A female was in labour in hospital
She was being violent/verbally abusive and aggressive with the staff.
She wouldnt engage with labour advice and wouldn't talk to staff about how she was feeling/pain levels/contractions etc
She was likely to give birth in the next hour or so.
The baby was being removed to LA as soon as she did so.
Her partner was there trying to calm her down but not succeeding, and was a known local drug user/dealer.
She was also known for drugs.

It was a week or so ago and it keeps coming back into my mind.
What sort of life was that little baby being born into?
What sort of life had this woman had/did she have, to be labouring and rather than being in pain and frightened, was being aggressive and irate?
That baby is going to be taken from her and she's probably going to be discharged and go back to wherever and what? Forget about it? Be traumatised?
She was only young.
Just how wrong the whole thing was?

Don't get me wrong, I am pretty rational and it isn't keeping me awake at night. But it has bothered me more than a zillion other scenarios I've been privy to. I'm not 100% sure why.

@Bagamoyo1

As a GP of 20+ years I’m glad when I hear of babies being taken into care at birth. To me this means that social services have done their job well. Far too often, parents are allowed to take babies home and have a few years to destroy their kids, so that by the time they’re taken into care it’s too late. Being adopted at birth is the best chance of breaking a negative cycle. Of course it’s tragic for the parents, and it’s sad to think what that woman must have been through to get to this point, but at least her baby will have a better chance in life. These decisions aren’t taken lightly. She’s probably had other kids taken into care further down the line, after years of failed parenting classes and support. That’s my experience of these situations anyway. So try and see this as a positive thing - that’s one child saved.

You are focussing on the baby, what about that distressed, traumatised mother? What support will you be offering women in this situation, as their GP? You don't sound very caring towards her. Will you be following her up in anyway, knowing she is not ok?

I wouldn’t worry about the woman, she’ll just pop out another one,which will also be removed. She will have had countless opportunities to get her act together but obviously chose not to.

Well that's harsh. We have no idea why she's made the choices she has, or how helpful any 'opportunities' offered actually were.

I find it quite depressing how so many care about the children in these situations but not about the adults they sometimes become, no the children don't have a choice, but those experiences close down the choice available to them (or that they're able to see) when they're older. Help and support is often woefully inadequate, social services is underfunded, mental health services are often dire, especially camhs where the threshold for receiving help can be distressingly high (I've taken those phone calls, distressed parents terrified their child is going to kill themselves.)

Just with my post - I meant it was better for the parents and the baby - everyone needs support in these situations.

I am actually genuinely worried now that many of you think support is not given for reuniting them? Do parents not get a chance to learn and develop into parents?

@2020IsADick

I was present at a similar scenario 8yrs ago, where I had to remove a child from their mother as soon as she was born. Following the labour and subsequent delivery, I accompanied baby to NICU where I sat with her for the remainder of my shift. She was born addicted to heroin, and the sounds she made were like no other I've heard before or since. It broke my heart. All I could do was let her hold my finger as she screamed (nurses etc were taking care of her physical needs, I was solely there to ensure she wasn't removed by family). I still think of that little girl often now, and wonder what happened to her. I'm afraid I had less sympathy for her mother.

Chances are, that mother WAS that baby though. It is really hard to get out of that cycle, especially if placed into the care system with lots of short term placements. Many posters are being overly optimistic in assuming this baby will go directly to a loving home where they will be adopted and live a happy life there. That is often not the reality sadly.

I wouldn’t worry about the woman, she’ll just pop out another one,which will also be removed. She will have had countless opportunities to get her act together but obviously chose not to.

What a horribly judgemental post. You don't know anything about this woman, and how many chances to enter rehab do you think people have? I'll give a clue, the waiting list can be years, and even then, there is little support in the community so often the cycle continues. Addiction is horrible, very very very few people would actively choose to be caught in that cycle; but it's complex and bloody hard with not enough support. It was right to remove the baby, but it's sad how little compassion people have for others because they assume things are just black and white.

It sounds like she knew the baby was being taken away as soon as born and her instinct was to fight back for control or something.
She hasn’t had a good life and has many faults but I believe her mothering instinct probably was there somewhere and she was most likely frustrated at her lack of control. The baby was hers until it popped out

I think that would play on my mind too. I just hope she does get the right support in order to turn her life around

Trauma breeds trauma. It's a sad cycle. I just hope the child can be adopted by a loving, safe family.

@RightYesButNo

If you want more information, there’s actually a thread in Classics by a real angel on Earth, *@EarthMotherImNot*, who cared for babies like these: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/922821-drug-dependant-baby-advice-needed

It may comfort you to know how much love people who foster babies put into their little charges, but the thread is also a tear-jerker.

I saw this current thread and immediately thought of that thread by EarthMotherImNot (RIP) - thanks for providing the link.

Hopefully it will help you to see there are people out there who pull out all the stops to help troubled children.

And sometimes people really do live out the "takes a village" mantra. We have a family friend who has a long term foster child in her care - coming up for GCSEs. Their lives fell apart when she was diagnosed with cancer, requiring surgery and in patient treatment (she's a single mum, albeit with grown up birth children). Her sister and sister's partner stepped in, to the extent of renting a bigger house so both the teen and their own son could have a bedroom each.

There are good people out there!

Some people react to distress and pain with anger and aggressiveness. Everyone is different and as you say she's had a tough life

I foster babies in this situation, I love them and care for them as I would my own, often spending endless hours cuddling and soothing them. Every time one moves on to adoption it breaks my heart and I think 'never again', then I get the phone call and say yes. There are many wonderful foster and adoptive parents out there who love these babies but we need to do more to support the birth mothers who go through this time and time again.

This may be best for the baby. The mother is already ruined. So sad, no easy solutions

It's a bitter truth that the baby has been deemed to have a better chance of a good life by going into LA care; that won't have been a decision taken lightly. It sounds like you're one of many processionals trying to make the world a better place by helping people in need. You're supporting the people supporting this lady, and her child. Caring goes hand in hand with feeling. I hope you have people around you who can give you a hug and remind you that (I guess) you're doing more than most of us to help people with addictions/trauma.

This isn't really the best place for these type of posts tbh, where it just invites judgement, nastiness or navel gazing self congratulations. Do you not have a mechanism at work op where you can talk about the issues that effect you? I couldn't imagine coming on here and discussing my work cases. Seems really unprofessional and wrong to post those details on Mumsnet. I appreciate you're upset but still...

@AnnListersBlister
I can't give too much detail, but It is an utter TRAGEDY that many women have a baby a year , to be taken away at birth because of drug use/chaotic behaviour.

It is much better for the child to be adopted at an early age than to be kept in a really risky situation.

Things have to be pretty dire for a baby to be taken from Birth mother at birth.

When a child dies of neglect, of a methadone overdose {after being dosed repeatedly to keep the child 'quiet'} there is an outcry over it, Justifiably.

Especially when hair testing reveals the child has been exposed tp addictive drugs for a considerable time.

Kids do need protection, and their needs trump the needs of the mother.

Grim situation.

@bloodywhitecat

I foster babies in this situation, I love them and care for them as I would my own, often spending endless hours cuddling and soothing them. Every time one moves on to adoption it breaks my heart and I think 'never again', then I get the phone call and say yes. There are many wonderful foster and adoptive parents out there who love these babies but we need to do more to support the birth mothers who go through this time and time again.

Agreed.

When addicted women are ready, they can and do step up to the mark and make a decent job of being a mother.
But it takes a lot of professional support.

I am actually genuinely worried now that many of you think support is not given for reuniting them? Do parents not get a chance to learn and develop into parents?
Unfortunately I have seen parents get too many chances to change and the children are then too damaged and too old for successful fostering or adoption. It's a very difficult decision (not mine, I was just an observer as a teacher).

Oh goodness....the ''Earth Mother I'm Not'' thread...

I read that and wept, years ago.

Earth Mother was indeed an Earth Angel.

Rest in Peace, Lovely Soul. ⭐️

@CaptainMyCaptain

I am actually genuinely worried now that many of you think support is not given for reuniting them? Do parents not get a chance to learn and develop into parents? Unfortunately I have seen parents get too many chances to change and the children are then too damaged and too old for successful fostering or adoption. It's a very difficult decision (not mine, I was just an observer as a teacher).

Yes. Another friend of mine has foster care of 2 of her sister's children. She had 4 altogether, the older 2 have quite severe behavioural problems and are with other family members. The younger 2 were deeply traumatised by being returned to their birth mother after the authorities thought she'd be able to cope - she didn't, and my friend had to go and pick them up from her sister's home to rescue them. They are now coming through the trauma but they should never have been placed back with their mother, as she wasn't capable of taking care of them properly. :(

My DN was born under very similar circumstances. The mother actually left the hospital with the epidural in and turned up later at another unit and was vile and abuse to everyone involved. In addition to the drugs and alcohol swimming around their blood stream they were also punched in their tiny newborn head as they arrived in the world.

It's my DN through adoption who has learning and physical disabilities because of FAS. But they had a great foster carer from birth and have been adopted by people who have made great professional and personal sacrificed to provide a stable and loving home. Long term plans are already underway to make sure DN gets into the right schools and services for their needs. They are happy, articulate, creative and kind.

The situation you describe can lead to a good outcome for the child. And the mother may or may not be able to turn her life around but every day she wakes up is a new opportunity and I hope one day the lady you describe (and DN's mother) manage to access the help they need.

We've also seen the damage caused in the first 2-3 years of life when a child is left with unfit parents. That was eye opening.

It’s so sad

Friend of mine is a child psychiatrist. She deals with children who are removed from their parents before the age of 2. So true high ‘trauma’.

It is distressing. For anyone involved. The child. The mother. The father. The medical people involved. Even for SS.

It’s normal to feel this way and it’s ok for you to feel this way. If you can. Try and find someone you can talk too. This would help xx

I know if I was told my baby was going to be taken off me once born I would fight tooth and nail to keep my baby inside me. They would have to give my an epidural so I could not walk or run or I would chase them as fast as I could to keep my child. Would fight literally tooth and nail for my children if needs be. It goes again our humanity. Is it sometimes necessary to protect Children though? Yes. So whilst it's easy for me to empathise with the mother, and I absolutely believe we should help everyone, a small innocent baby needs to be protected to. But at the expense of living with their birth mother. So situations like this there is pain whatever happens. And so it sticks with us. Because we know there is no good answer, it's just messy and ugly and completely human. It's easier to understand and make 'logical' decisions about things like this when not faced with the raw human emotions. They make us question things about our system and ourselves.

If you have to deal with matters like this as part of your job then you need to speak to the support person at your work. If they cannot help you then you need to ask for counselling.

It’s very inappropriate that you have posted details of this patient / client and her baby in a public forum. It’s a breach of confidentiality to that mother and her child.

They are vulnerable people to whom you owe a duty of care.

You have given lots of unnecessary details that could allow the woman or someone close to her to identify her

eg the date, her partner, her partners Job, her drug use, her rough age, even her stage in labour!

You should ask for it to be taken down.

If you wanted to discuss the issue of children who are removed at birth by social services ( which is an important one ) then you should have posted a more general question, without talking about this individual.

@81Byerley

I've found the thread about the baby being fostered www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/922821-drug-dependant-baby-advice-needed

OP, you’re obviously a really caring person. I know what you mean as I have been involved in cases where young people have been taken into care following some harrowing experiences. Life is horribly unjust.
Do you have any access to support via your workplace? We didn’t get much, but were sometimes allowed to have debrief support meetings after any very serious cases.

Surely “Supervision” is given to social workers?
It IS harrowing work, especially child protection, but I’d be very concerned that if OP can’t cope so that they need to post on a public forum about “
Feeling bad” that that aren’t up to the job, emotionally?
It does have a high burn out rate, but if in house support isn’t given, maybe try another career path?