Why do so many posters on here seem to be struggling to accept that the U.K. doesn’t just include England?

[Rhine]

And that we have different rules regarding Covid?

Over the last couple of weeks I’ve seen so many comments from posters asking rather aggressively why others posters are still meeting up, going for meals, to the pub, for drinks, to the gym etc ‘when we are in lockdown’? Well actually no, England is in lockdown. I’m in Wales and we are not in lockdown. Scotland is not in lockdown. I believe Northern Ireland wasn’t but is about to go back into it. The U.K. doesn’t begin and end at the borders of England...

I’ve just seen one thread where a poster continually pointed out she was in Scotland but that didn’t stop the ‘ we are in lockdown’ remarks.

Please educate yourselves. It’s annoying.

Contrary to a comment above, English people are not insular and inward looking but are quite open to other people, ideas and places. Referring to Scots, Welsh and Irish when talking about the UK is not right though as Ireland is not in the UK. Scots do this as much as English. How hard is it for them to refer to Northern Ireland and N Irish when discussing the UK? A distinction needs to be made so as not to rope in an independent country and people, which would be disrespectful, even if inadvertently.

@Covidnomore what is it exactly that you don’t think I get? Please do feel free to actually have a discussion...

As I said in my post - most non English members of the U.K. operate from a background of very strongly identifying as being welsh, scottish, northern Irish first and “British” last.

Most English people in my experience would identify as British, there doesn't seem to be the same cultural background of separation between the nations in the English national consciousness (and I get historically why there would be an issue, but the almost pathological loathing of “the English” exhibited in some parts of Wales is almost DNA coded it feels like).

And @Wbeezer my point had nothing to do with team loyalty, of course Scottish people will cheer for Scotland if they are playing, my point was (and it might be a peculiarly Welsh thing perhaps, I’ve not spent much time in Scotland or Northern Ireland) that if England were playing France for instance then (in Wales at least), the Welsh cheer for France - whereas my experience of English fans is they simply move on to the next “home” nation to cheer on if England aren’t playing because they don’t seem to see the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish as “Other” in the same way those nationalities seem to view the English.

But back to the original point of the thread - if location is relevant to your post and is likely to affect the responses you get then logically you should include it in your post. I don’t know how that could possibly be unreasonable.

@Abitofalark

Contrary to a comment above, English people are not insular and inward looking but are quite open to other people, ideas and places. Referring to Scots, Welsh and Irish when talking about the UK is not right though as Ireland is not in the UK. Scots do this as much as English. How hard is it for them to refer to Northern Ireland and N Irish when discussing the UK? A distinction needs to be made so as not to rope in an independent country and people, which would be disrespectful, even if inadvertently.

Even though this is well-intentioned, I don't agree. Saying Northern Ireland instead of Ireland - yes. (And, in addition, saying Ireland instead of Southern Ireland, which is not the name of the country, would be great).

However, as @OchonAgusOchonO has already said, many of the people living in Northern Ireland identify as Irish, just as many there identify as British. The Good Friday Agreement makes it explicit that people in Northern Ireland may choose to identify as either Irish or British....so it's absolutely fine to refer to Irish people (or to British people) in Northern Ireland, and by extension in the UK as a whole.

You'd think that the term Northern Irish would be more inclusive, but I'm not sure that it is. In surveys many more people choose to self-identify as Irish or as British rather than as Northern Irish. Saying Northern Irish is much less unwieldy than having to say British and Irish all the time of course, but I'm not sure which is the preferred option for those in NI - quite probably there is a mix of opinions.

My point, though, is that as an Irish person (from the ROI) I don't find it at all disrespectful to hear people from NI being described as Irish, as the poster has indicated I might. On the contrary, the disrespectful bit is leaving out those who don't identify as Irish, but as British, as Ochon has said upthread.

myths you have basically just dismissed our annoyance.

Its almost as if we should be thankful that we are referred to as 'English's. Why would anyone want to be anything but English?

I am a Scot and I am British. I have absolutely no issue with anyone calling me British. That's what j am and I am proud to be.

If people im England are so proud to be British 1st and English 2nd, why do many refer to the UK as England? Why do they make that mistake? And why is it acceptable and why would you just ignore it?

You try and sound very well reasonable and thoughtful on your post, but you are obviously English and you don't know what it is like to be from another part of the UK.

The BBC for example. Do you think it should really be called the BBC or should it be the EBC? There have been some absolute howlers at times, where the UK has been referred to as England and where the word 'we' is used when referring to England. That never happens with other countries within the UK - why is that, if we are all 1?

As for Sports. I support British sports people, but for Rugby and Football, I am like most other Scots.

Have you ever watched an England game on the TV? Have you ever listened to the commentators? How many reference 1966 can be made? And then won or lose, why is it celebrated and commiserated in such a big on national news? Loke talked about the whole time? Does the same happen for the other home nations? Of course it bloody doesn't.

You strike me as having an arrogance (probably unintentioned) that only someone from England can have. You dismiss the genuine annoyance that others have . You have never experienced it do you don't fully understand it. Its ok not to understand, its not OK to dismiss it.

Scottish Nationalism at times can be very nasty, and English Nationalism is on the rise. Given than England is the largest country in the UK, its pretty scary actually if you are not English.

What is Brexit if it's not English Nationalism?

@MythsandSparkles
when corrected for referring to England as the U.K. they actually mean it doesn’t matter - because they can’t imagine why it would cause offence

Shouldn't they try to empathise a bit more then? To talk to people, to think about it, to try to understand why people are offended, instead of dismissing them.

most non English members of the U.K. operate from a background of very strongly identifying as being welsh, scottish, northern Irish first and “British” last

This isn't true of many Unionists in NI who identify primarily as British. (The clue is in the name).

my experience of English fans is......they don’t seem to see the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish as “Other” in the same way those nationalities seem to view the English.

Again, maybe do the research and try to understand the differing viewpoints. There are always reasons.

I get historically why there would be an issue

It doesn't really sound as though you get it. It sounds like you haven't given it that much thought.

Sometimes it isnt the fault of the people replying to an OP. It's the stupidity of the OP. The other day there was a thread on the legal board and I asked where the OP was from so she could get appropriate advice and she answered "I'm in the UK". What I suspect she meant was that she was in England and required advice relating to Englush law, so either she didnt realise each area in the UK has its own legal system or she just thought that the UK only includes England. The assuming that the all countries within the UK are just England can prevent the OP getting proper advice.

Problem is there are so many selfish twats who think the rules don't apply to them that it's the first conclusion people jump to!

[quote MythsandSparkles]@Covidnomore what is it exactly that you don’t think I get? Please do feel free to actually have a discussion...

As I said in my post - most non English members of the U.K. operate from a background of very strongly identifying as being welsh, scottish, northern Irish first and “British” last.

Most English people in my experience would identify as British, there doesn't seem to be the same cultural background of separation between the nations in the English national consciousness (and I get historically why there would be an issue, but the almost pathological loathing of “the English” exhibited in some parts of Wales is almost DNA coded it feels like).

And @Wbeezer my point had nothing to do with team loyalty, of course Scottish people will cheer for Scotland if they are playing, my point was (and it might be a peculiarly Welsh thing perhaps, I’ve not spent much time in Scotland or Northern Ireland) that if England were playing France for instance then (in Wales at least), the Welsh cheer for France - whereas my experience of English fans is they simply move on to the next “home” nation to cheer on if England aren’t playing because they don’t seem to see the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish as “Other” in the same way those nationalities seem to view the English.

But back to the original point of the thread - if location is relevant to your post and is likely to affect the responses you get then logically you should include it in your post. I don’t know how that could possibly be unreasonable.[/quote]
@MythsandSparkles of course English rugby fans will cheer on ANYONE playing their traditional rivals, those they see as needing taken down a peg like the Aussies or the French, it's not about some kind of generous sporting magnanimity anymore than Welsh or Scottish fans hoping England lose is about xenophobia, its sporting rivalry! Besides, it strikes me as a bit patronising to suddenly support your underdog rivals out of kindness, but maybe I'm just a "chippy" Scot?

I need to learn how to edit the quote function, maybe it doesn't work if you're not on the App...

In a quiz the other month a woman was asked . Strathclyde university can be found in which city in Scotland ? Now getting it wrong fair enough. However she could not name a Scottish city

Some people are utterly rubbish at geography though. My husband worked with a woman who had a degree (not in geography) and whose parents were teachers and she didn't know where Jersey was, or what the capital of Belgium was. How?

@Wbeezer I think maybe we’re hanging around with different sports fans

@LizzieAnt people keep telling me I don’t get it without being able to explain quite what it is I don’t get...i might not draw the same conclusions as you but that’s not the same as not understanding.

As I said, historically there are issues with the union, but in 2020, with the devolved parliaments?

If you have an issue with the way your country is being run, do something about it - petition the Welsh First Minster to get a better deal from Westminster, Vote SNP if you want them to have a clear mandate for a second indyref.

If you think the current split of MPs disenfranchises you because it doesn’t matter which way your country votes it’s always the English vote that determines Westminster - petition to get that changed, you might actually find some English people will help you with that.

As I keep saying, to return to the topic of the OP, if your location is relevant to your post due to location specific laws, procedures etc then you should state it, it’s common sense and should mean you get far more relevant answers. Who really wants to read a thread with a hundred people screeching about lockdown breaches because the OP couldn’t be bothered to point out where they were located? What a waste of time.

As I said, historically there are issues with the union, but in 2020, with the devolved parliaments?

In 2020 with devolved parliaments, where Westminster completely ignore the wishes and needs of the devolved nations? Where westminster decided to ignore the GFA which brought peace to NI and implement a brexit that screws the people of NI (and Ireland)? Where westminster told the scottish people in the last indy ref that the only way to ensure they stayed in the EU was to remain in the UK and then proceeded to sell them down the river by having a brexit ref?

Sure, no issues in 2020 as they all have full power with devolved parliaments.

Who really wants to read a thread with a hundred people screeching about lockdown breaches because the OP couldn’t be bothered to point out where they were located? What a waste of time

The people screeching seem to want it, since it never occurs to them that its easier to work out from the OP that the setting is not the same as theirs.
And FYI, all of this, the whole of MN, is a waste of time.

I would also like to add that Scots and Welsh are different, we are Celtic . Take for example this upcoming Brexit party celebration in '22 . A celebration of Britain and of what it means to be British .

It never seems to match with our identity we don't do British the same way . The English seem to delight in banging on about war , any of them .The Falklands , the world wars it's embarrassing .

The U K establish ram down our throats how to be British . Accept we are different.

@MythsandSparkles
I'm actually Irish, not Welsh. I did mention it - it's about 2 posts up from my earlier reply to you.

The historical issues simply don't go away as fast as you'd like. It takes generations. And many of the issues aren't that historical either. Brexit is a recent example where the establishment has shown just how little it thinks of the people of Northern Ireland (and indeed Ireland), for example.

Myths this is what you said

when corrected for referring to England as the U.K. they actually mean it doesn’t matter - because they can’t imagine why it would cause offence

So they refer the then UK as England when speaking to someone from the other home nations. The person says I am not English. They don't realise that 'oh fuck I'm an ignorant idiot, they just think 'Why would causing a Scot, English cause any offence?'

And I should read back and ensure spelling and quotations are correct

Since when did the sea separate scotland and eng?😖

@mayaknew - Since when did the sea separate scotland and eng?

Scotland have obviously finally managed to ditch England.

Its strange, if anyone calls me British I correct them. I'm English, not British. Irritates the life out of me.

@HunterHearstHelmsley - if you're English, you're also British. The only citizens of the UK who are not necessarily British are people from NI who identify as solely Irish.

I'm desperately trying to adopt a dog but genuinely that comment has put me off that rescue 😳

@mayaknew is that not because there's a lot of isles off the scottish coast, that aren't part of the mainland? I know when I was getting parcels delivered to Tain, it was costing a lot more because they said it was difficult to get to, so the cost came under non mainland UK delivery. I could be wrong, though.

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]@HunterHearstHelmsley - if you're English, you're also British. The only citizens of the UK who are not necessarily British are people from NI who identify as solely Irish.[/quote]
Although I believe the UK haven't actually honoured the GFA there because NI people are meant to be able to identify as Irish or British. Currently they can be Irish and British, or British - but not solely Irish unless they renounce their Britishness (which is ridiculous to have to do if you don't believe you're British at all). Emma de Souza did a great job of exposing this.

The "English people will support any of the other home nations teams in sport" line is such bullshit.

I've watched loads of games either in England or with English friends and they NEVER automatically supported Scotland/Wales/NI as their alternative option - even my English friends who were living in Wales at the time!

The vitriol in a London pub during the Euros 19 2016 when Wales played Portugal in the semis while England had been knocked out two rounds earlier - other than my group, every other person there was very loudly cheering on Portugal!