“Don’t get married if you’re a financially independent woman”.

[Lucidas]

Is this the advice we should be giving to young women? I have a female friend who is convinced of this - going through a divorce at the moment and she is aggrieved at having to lose a big chunk of her earnings - held down a full time job as a mother, still covered the majority of child rearing, is the higher earner and with a layabout husband.

Women are often told to get married for ‘protection’ but surely it’s no protection to get married to a lower earner, someone with fewer assets, or one of the many cocklodger specimens we come across on MN.

The response could be to say that she simply married the wrong person, but it’s not always apparent how people will change down the line.

@CHiPS1971, are you in England (or somewhere other than Scotland)? Under Scots law I don’t think you can do what you have done as you can’t write certain people ‘out’ of their inheritance (my understanding anyway when I got divorced, and rewrote my will). So I guess the overarching point is always the same - take legal advice so you have protected your position.

I’m glad this thread has been made. Since I joined MN I’ve been having second thoughts about my attitude to not being interested in marriage.

I’ve seen countless threads of women telling other women to force their partners if they’re not having it. Literally get all the paperwork in order, book the registry office etc...all for the woman to “be protected”.

I’ve seen it that many times I started to question should I be forcing my DP? (who has been divorced once and isn’t interested in marriage at all, wasn’t in the first place but that’s another story)

I’ve had people condescendingly telling me I was an idiot and naive, until I said once I achieve my degree next year, I’ll be earning significantly more than him and both our names will be on the mortgage of the house we’ll be buying, all of a sudden I didn’t need to get married or be protected 🤷🏽‍♀️

@justchecking1 yes. You need to see a solicitor and also in conjunction with your will/new will.

All legal parties involved will need to sign . You will also need a power of attorney and if property under mortgage and shared mortgage/deeds/ tenants in common etc legal framework will need to be considered.

A solicitor will sort but will cost as you need to drill down multiple layers .

Also, talk to you children when appropriate. My sons are grown now so understand how this protects them. You also need to explain to your Dc's when they are ready how to protect their inheritance from divorce and how this legal framework impacts/protects them.

...until I said once I achieve my degree next year, I’ll be earning significantly more than him and both our names will be on the mortgage of the house we’ll be buying, all of a sudden I didn’t need to get married or be protected

I am not saying get married. Really not. Do as you wish. But I think you might be slightly naive about the structural nature of sexism. Female graduates can (but usually don’t) out earn male graduates. It’s not uncommon at all. But add in a couple of kids, a couple of maternity leaves, a couple of missed opportunities for training or promotion, a few pounds’ gain in weight, or a disability/debilitating condition, and I wonder if you will see the question of the impact of sexism in the same way.

@Purplecatshopaholic i am in England!

I have also ring fenced my son's inheritance. The money that my son's inherit will always be their money and not shared with their wives. This is ring fenced , family money

But how? What legal mechanism allows this? There are very limited options for imposing rules on what happens to your assets after you die, and it’s rare that a clause like this would in any way be enforceable - even if stipulated in your will.

Am I the only person who, if I died (I have one young daughter) wouldn’t mind ‘my’ money invested in my home being split with any children my partner had with his next wife, or any step-children brought to my husband’s second marriage? I would just want them all to be happy. I trust my DH not to screw our daughter over. If he has a second family, so be it.

Marriage is a financial contract. I think too many people get carried away with romance and pretty dresses. For a lot of women, who take a huge financial hit by taking a step away from work or reducing their hours, not taking promotion etc, marriage is an important safeguard. But if you aren't prepared to share your assets, regardless of gender, you shouldn't get married.

Relative of mine who didn't have children was understandably aggrieved at having to share her cancer insurance payout with her ex who left her during cancer treatment.

@justchecking1 Would it still stand if you were to remarry?

Yes, you ring fence via a solicitor. I have left all i have, as of today day to my sons. No one can touch that. My ex MIL is my legal power of attorney ( another document you need to have drawn) and only cares about my sons,her grand children. She will fight to death for my boys if i am not here and I have given her power of attorney over my financial affairs should i die.

She is a proper scouser from the 50's and you would not mess with her! My scouse ex MIL and legal paper work... formidable!

@Wickerbaskets you need to see a solicitor and also look at power it attorney. It can be done but be prepared to spend a small fortune.

Thank you @CHiPS1971, will look into it

@flaviaritt. I wasn’t answering any post in particular, it’s just something I’ve noticed since I’ve been on here. Even if I was to have children and go part time say, I’d still be making more or the same as my DP. My degree is a professional one, he works in construction so it’s not comparable about female/male graduates to my situation (though I do know that males in my profession are probably paid more even though there’s realistically more females in the sector).

I’m well aware of the patriarchy, sexism, all the unpaid labour women do, it’s part of my degree to learn about it and work to try to change/help with these types of issues. Not that I’m gonna change the world, but I can try and chip away at the patriarchy from the lowest level maybe.

I’ve always been savvy with money and worked/studied to better myself so I’m not worried about going it alone if that time does come. Whereas DP is quite happy being a worker bee and getting a steady wage every week but doesn’t really have much ambitions passed that 🤷🏽‍♀️

*past

Why won’t MN get a bloody edit feature? 😡

Isn’t this thread missing the point of the archaic inheritance laws. My understanding is that if you die unmarried your partner has to pay inheritance tax. So you’d honestly be loopy not to be married.

Personally I take the approach of being married but keep my very well paid career.

@Wickerbaskets you need to put in place Power of Attorney to oversee and implement and advise your children.

@Thisismylife1 you are right to a point, if a house is held in joint names you would have to be quite wealthy to be hit by inheritance tax, very few people do actually pay it.

Am I the only one not quite believing what I am reading, the law was changed in 1996 as it favoured men and assets were not split equally. It was a victory for feminism to recognise the contribution of the person who had 'worked' in the home. If you are wealthier than your male partner and your only interest is protecting that wealth, of course, do not get married. I don't think marrying for love is outdated, it is the whole point. You are demonstrating a commitment, it is unpredictable and there are no guarantees. I really don't think you should marry someone unless that's how you feel. You don't carry out a risk assessment and try to understand how these may be mitigated. The whole point is you don't know what lies ahead and you run with that (or you don't). I was post graduate educated, on a very good career path, earning quite a bit more than my DH but we had our first child when we were fairly young amongst our peers so mid to lateish 20's. I didn't want to leave my baby when I was over an hour away in London and my DH was still working on his architecture qualification so I stayed at home with DS. 14 years on my DH earns 5 times my salary but I took a hit and we both via family, contributed almost fairly, to quite big deposit on our house but him more than me as his family our wealthier than mine, who are wealthy but not as wealthy. He asked me to marry him and I just said 'yes', we didn't really think about it.

I would agree with the OP, except I'm conflicted as I would like to get married at some point in my life.

I earn more than twice what my current DP earns, and am a very high earner.

I am planning leaving DP in the next few weeks, primarily because we have been in an engagement that has now lasted over 5 years, and he consistently makes excuses about setting a date (I know he doesn't want to marry me), but also because over the last 2 years, he has turned into a complete man-child.

I have a senior level job in finance that I didn't give up when DC were born, and was promoted coming back from first maternity leave. Each pregnancy I was off 7 months, and my parents looked after DC until I felt they were old enough to join nursery (12 months old). I also do all of the life and house admin and DC related anything, except when I can beg him to "help" me on the odd occasion. We have a cleaner, gardener and my parents who support me with logistics, and I would give up DP before I gave up any of those people.

When I leave DP, it will benefit me hugely, as when the house is sold, and we each take our share of equity, I'll be able to buy a larger house in a much nicer area for me and the DC. I won't have to share any of my 3 pensions with him (started the first at 23, I'm now 40), and contributions have always been at least 10% salary.

He won't have access to my savings, and he won't be able to buy a house similar to our current one, as he doesn't earn enough to get a bigger mortgage.

I would like to get married at some point in life, purely because I would love to be with someone who loved me as much as I loved them, and wanted to make the commitment of marriage.

However, in the financial position I am now, I wouldn't want any future DH to inherit before my DC. If it's possible for me to put my new house and pensions in trust for my DC, that would certainly mean I'd be more comfortable marrying a new man.

I'm in a very unusual situation, being the female higher earner who hasn't suffered from taking maternity leaves, and given that if current DP was after my money, he would have just married me! He's been married before, and was badly burnt through that experience, though until very recently had still been claiming he wanted to marry me. Ho hum.

@flaviaritt

Am I the only person who, if I died (I have one young daughter) wouldn’t mind ‘my’ money invested in my home being split with any children my partner had with his next wife, or any step-children brought to my husband’s second marriage? I would just want them all to be happy. I trust my DH not to screw our daughter over. If he has a second family, so be it.

A somewhat common scenario that people might want to avoid is - husband remarries (normally younger) woman, new wife may already have kids, they may have kids together or they may not have kids but, when he dies, house and assets go to new wife and then new wife doesn't include your children in her will at all.

There are threads on MN about this happening from time-to-time.

[quote CHiPS1971]@justchecking1 yes. You need to see a solicitor and also in conjunction with your will/new will.

All legal parties involved will need to sign . You will also need a power of attorney and if property under mortgage and shared mortgage/deeds/ tenants in common etc legal framework will need to be considered.

A solicitor will sort but will cost as you need to drill down multiple layers .

Also, talk to you children when appropriate. My sons are grown now so understand how this protects them. You also need to explain to your Dc's when they are ready how to protect their inheritance from divorce and how this legal framework impacts/protects them. [/quote]
Is this not a pre nup cos they are not legally binding though considered in divorce courts?

After my last three relationships, over 16 years, it has become absolutely clear that being a woman with a career and a house, makes having a relationship very risky.

The freedom to walk away is the only real protection against financial/emotional abuse and the only way to protect my dc.

I feel so sorry for some of my married friends, being blackmailed in marriages until their children grow up.

I don't think it's fair to say the lower earner is necessarily "lazy" or a "layabout."
Under normal circumstances (I'm currently on maternity leave) I earn more than my OH. I am a primary teacher. My OH does not have a degree so is not in a "profession" as such but he works ft in social care and I am incredibly proud of the work he does.

The advice I would give is that if you want to get married, get married in your early/mid-20s.

I'm too old now. I'm at a point in my life/career where I've done well for myself, and I'm not going to meet a decent man who is in the same financial position as me. I have made huge sacrifices to get where I am, and I'm not prepared to hand over half of that to some man. Marriage is therefore off the cards.

Marriage was a romantic concept when I was younger, now it's just a legal contract that wipes out half the wealth I accumulated from making huge sacrifices. I feel thoroughly resentful at the thought of anyone who wasn't there at the time benefiting from those sacrifices I made in my life before him, especially if it's a man who turns out to be an absolute prince and cheats and/or inflicts any other harm.

You should aim to get married when you're both in a similar position with similar goals, and that really only happens when you're still young.

Getting married benefits the lower earner. In many cases, that's the woman (especially if she is or plans to be a mother as that can reduce earning potential), but it's not always. In the case of a financially independent woman with good earning power, marriage doesn't benefit her or her family.

It's all very well to say that each adult should be financially independent, but there are so many reasons why that can just be impossible.
The cost of childcare, caring responsibilities, health issues, transport problems, discrimination in the workplace, lack of a supportive partner ... there are some very significant difficulties that can make a person unable to be really independent once they have kids. This is far more the case for women than men.

so, yes, be independent if possible. If you can't be, then at least know the situation you're in - know what your partner earns, know how to leave if necessary, know what support you can rely on (from govt or people around you).

It's amazing how much easier it is to have self-respect and confidence if you know what the true situation is, and you feel you have some options available.

You don't carry out a risk assessment and try to understand how these may be mitigated.
I think that is exactly what you should do, with eyes wide open about the person with whom you are considering marriage.