Women Priests

[Karatema]

I've just been having a Twitter argument with a man who believes women should not be Priests!

He's added me to his list of "bores", which is fine by me, because I think people like him belong in the past. AIBU?

I'm sure MNers will tell me if I am.

I do see where you're coming from. It is interesting!

@june2007

I def am for women priests but no Christians on both sides of the arquement including women. The women who are against do not feel second class. But I think the bible is for it. (Pheobe a deacon, Anna a profetess, Junia an appostle suggest so.. Paul we all know not so keen on women.)

On the contrary, Paul was incredibly liberating towards women for the times. He commended and commissioned women as leaders and deacons and apostles and mentioned many women in his salutations at the end of his epistles, something unheard of in such writings of antiquity. He said women should be allowed to learn (not allowed in the communities these letters were circulating in), and told men to love wives as Christ loved the church, ie self sacrificially and with no agenda but love, again incredibly unusual for a time when women were seen as men's possessions. There are of course those two or three notorious passages but context is everything and with rigorous hermeneutics we can uncover something of what he might have actually meant, and find out that accurate translations make all the difference.

Op - twas ever thus, twitter seems to being out extremists on all sides of arguments. I've been told I am going to hell because I sometimes preach in my church. Hey ho!

@AnotherNameForChristmas

SarahAndQuack, I think that's a really interesting question. It's too late for me to be coherent now, but I do find theology and religion really interesting. I don't think faith is a choice- but I do think that being a member of a sect (eg Baptist, Catholic, methodist, whatever) is more of a conscious choice, especially if someone joins as an adult.

I'd say faith is a choice - faith by it's very nature is believe without evidence, if you believe the claims you choose that religion.

I follow the christian religion, but my faith is much more personal.

On the contrary, Paul was incredibly liberating towards women for the times. He commended and commissioned women as leaders and deacons and apostles and mentioned many women in his salutations at the end of his epistles, something unheard of in such writings of antiquity.

Oh come on.

1. There were women leaders in the early church because that's what JC told the church to do. Paul would seem a bit daft writing 'dear Bob of Corinth' when the church was run by Cheryl and Bob was her secretary.

1. The transition from radically liberating for women to down with the patriarchy was doctrinally rooted in Paul's teachings. You can argue they were overstated by later generations but it's just silly to say he was on the women's lib side of things.

Oh I adore it when religious people spout off deeply misogynistic opinions like this.

The more they do it the more people will realise religion is ridiculous, outdated and bigoted and it will slowly die out along with the people who hold these bonkers viewpoints.

I'd disagree, donquixote, as a long time scholar of Paul and NT theology and history. Paul's writings contained an unusually emancipatory narrative for women for antiquity. For a Jew from a very patriarchal culture it's really interesting to note the way he spoke of women and to women.
Unfortunately though those more difficult passages have been used to excuse oppression of women over centuries. It's a shame they didn't continue to emulate early church practices where women led churches and were seen as equal partners.

I quite like the idea of Cheryl and Bob of Corinth, though.

Possibly very unpopular opinion: I think religions have the right to set their own rules within reason. They don't have to have female priests, they can also have doctrine that says birth control, abortion, sex before marriage, gay marriage etc is wrong.

People are then free to choose if they want to be a member of that church or not.

The slight difficulty here is that religions tend not to be made up of one monolithic person: it consists of lots of different people of different generations who don't necessarily feel the same about these issues.

The CoE condemned homosexuality, now on the whole it doesn't. It forbade female priests, now it doesn't. And these changes came about not through attitudes being imposed on it from outside, but because of changing attitudes within the church itself.

For those wondering which bit of priesting requires a penis, my husband who went to a Jesuit boarding school is well-aware. He wasn't a victim himself, but many were.

I'd disagree, donquixote, as a long time scholar of Paul and NT theology and history. Paul's writings contained an unusually emancipatory narrative for women for antiquity. For a Jew from a very patriarchal culture it's really interesting to note the way he spoke of women and to women.

is fair enough for scholars of this kind of thing

Unfortunately though those more difficult passages have been used to excuse oppression of women over centuries.

is the reality of religion oppressing women for centuries, and women being so caught up in it they help it along by doing all the church-y "wife work" (scraping up the wax from the candles, doing the flowers, cleaning, making the tea) while the men do the attention grabbing stuff (denouncing unmarried mothers from the pulpit etc). And that is why someone like me, feminist atheist, is always aghast at how many women go along with it. Or how many people go along with it on the surface, but subvert it underneath (catholics using condoms springs to mind).

Yeah, me too, Brefugee, I'm appalled by how the church in general has perpetuated this oppressive narrative and how some continue it today. I believe it is completely opposite to the practices and beliefs of early Christians and the priorities of the kingdom of God as demonstrated by Jesus. I as a feminist Christian woman in church leadership do not go along with this and fight against it and am very thankful that my church and most I know have left this behind and indeed denounce it as shameful and anti what God is about.

It amazes me that in the educated world in the 21st century that people still believe all this religious nonsense without evidence.

It's little more than fairy tales for adults.

I'd say faith is a choice - faith by it's very nature is believe without evidence, if you believe the claims you choose that religion.

But you can't choose to believe something? Either you do, or you do not. It's like trust. You cannot will yourself to trust a cheating partner. You might want to, very much. But if you don't, you don't.

@corythatwas - I think the C of E really does still condemn homosexuality on the whole. I know the official position is that it doesn't, and it's just fine to expect people to be celibate, but I think the current debacle around LLF and the evangelical wing makes it pretty clear!

@SarahAndQuack

I'd say faith is a choice - faith by it's very nature is believe without evidence, if you believe the claims you choose that religion.

But you can't choose to believe something? Either you do, or you do not. It's like trust. You cannot will yourself to trust a cheating partner. You might want to, very much. But if you don't, you don't.

@corythatwas - I think the C of E really does still condemn homosexuality on the whole. I know the official position is that it doesn't, and it's just fine to expect people to be celibate, but I think the current debacle around LLF and the evangelical wing makes it pretty clear!

I'd agree - I didn't explain it very well.

When I said 'faith is a choice' is meant to say you choose the 'faith' you want when you 'pick' your religion.

Clearly you can't choose to believe in something - belief isn't a choice but picking a religion that you think best fits your belief is a choice.

@Birdsandbeez & I love the irony of someone with no beliefs trying to push their non-belief on others by claiming its “fairy tale.” If you don’t like religious beliefs pushed on you then maybe you should practice what you preach.

Oh, I see what you mean.

Yes, that's true up to a point, but I think for some people, that choice is effectively made because of the shape of your belief. I know people who believe in the sacraments as mediated to them by the Catholic Church, and who just couldn't say 'oh, I believe in the sacraments but I don't like this misogyny, so I'll go to the Quakers down the road instead'. Of course some people can and do, but others don't.

@SarahAndQuack

Oh, I see what you mean.

Yes, that's true up to a point, but I think for some people, that choice is effectively made because of the shape of your belief. I know people who believe in the sacraments as mediated to them by the Catholic Church, and who just couldn't say 'oh, I believe in the sacraments but I don't like this misogyny, so I'll go to the Quakers down the road instead'. Of course some people can and do, but others don't.

I'd say most people follow the religion of their parents and local peer group, they get indoctrinated at an early age and in some people that can be difficult to escape from.

The reality is no religions are evidence based, they are little more than localised mythology - if you are in the UK / USA your are likely to be Christian, if you were raised in Saudi Arabia you are likely to be Muslim, if you were raised in Delhi you are likely to be Hindu etc.

Each religion has it's adherents thinking theirs is the 'right' god, they can't all be correct but they can all be wrong and that is the more likely scenario.

Where you live influences what you believe far more than anything else.

[quote Ladyks]@Birdsandbeez & I love the irony of someone with no beliefs trying to push their non-belief on others by claiming its “fairy tale.” If you don’t like religious beliefs pushed on you then maybe you should practice what you preach.[/quote]
The difference is non belief doesn't place constraints on people or try to influence governments etc.

People have their lives ruined by being indoctrinated to believe in something that almost certainly isn't true. I know of people who live in absolute fear they may go to hell and suffer for eternity.

Religions are sexist and devisive, they seek power and control people with little more than blackmail.

Why do religions get special concessions? Why don't they declare their income and get taxed accordingly? Why are they allowed blatant sexism? Why are 26 positions in the house of lords reserved for C of E bishops?

If I opened a business that had 26 positions only available to left handed white males I'd be in court - religions get away with murder (quite literally in a lot of cases)

You might not likely the term 'fairy tales for adults' but that almost certainly is the reality.

@BlueThistles

I've just been having a Twitter argument with a man who believes women should not be Priests!

nobody cares what he thinks...

do you remember when women couldn't get into Golf clubs 🙄

One of my local ones still do!

I follow what you're saying, but how does that relate to what I said?

If you believe in the Catholic sacraments, it doesn't matter that chances are this is to do with your upbringing, because you believe it.

Sure, some people (many people, increasingly) who are brought up in one religion are exposed to arguments against religion or to atheism or to other religions and change what they think and believe. But that fact doesn't change the situation for people who believe.

I think catholicism belongs in the past! Why any self-respecting woman would sign up to be a priest in such a misogynistic organisation is beyond me. I was brought up catholic and saw the horrors inflicted onto women and children by so called "men of the cloth".

You don’t have to be religious to do good in the community but the stats seem to suggest that something compels more people with a faith to do something:

Studies show that 54 percent of people who regularly attend religious services do volunteer work, compared to 32 percent of people who do not regularly attend services [source: National Service Resources].
money.howstuffworks.com › faith-b...

People who regularly attend religious services probably hear about the volunteer work via the religious organisation, though.

but the idea that you need to have faith to be a good person is so laughable i don't usually even debate it. (if you do good because God tells you to, is that really altruistic? It's a whole philosophical debate anyway, even without God in the equation: are there really altruistic acts, or are they for the benefit of the person doing them and the benefit for anyone else is only a by product of that)

But i don't think people should be mocked or belittled for having faith, or having faith and being a feminist, or having faith and being a scientist etc etc. I do think, however, there is a conversation (a respectful one) to be had about why certain groups (voters, women in catholicism etc) collude in their own oppression.