Schools should close for 2 weeks after the Christmas mixing

[OverTheRainbow88]

I think that schools should remain closed for face to face teaching 2-3 weeks after the end of the period in which Boris will allow families to all mix.

I don’t want to be in a classroom with 30 different kids 5 times a day who’ve mixed inside with all different family members and friends.

I say online learning until mid Jan, if Boris will allow us all to mix at Christmas

I’ve seen 2 dentists and they were in surgical masks as normal just with the addition of a visor. Full PPE is just for aerosol generating procedures such as high speed drilling. I’m not sure whether they will qualify for vaccination, I hope so as there’s a lot of people out there in pain with huge dental problems.

RattleOfBars but why should that mean teachers can't have any protection. You say you only get plastic aprons, gloves and the standard surgical mask but you don't explain why teachers and TAs can't have those, do you wear them for fun or do you think they matter? If they don't matter why was there all the fuss about not enough PPE earlier in the year. You can't have it both ways, well you can because that is what Boris has decreed but why?

I haven't read the full thread so sorry if it has already been asked but wouldn't it work if schools broke up a week early so people could isolate for two weeks before the mixing starts? Not sure about dates round the country but my local schools break up on the 17th so they are doing 4 days that week, you can bet they'll leave early on the last day, they always do, and I wonder how much work is actually done that week. I know my GSs tell me they've been watching films in many lessons that week.

Or if people have a problem with childcare maybe they could just say if you are planning on mixing at Christmas you can keep your kids off the last week of term so you are protecting granny. People who need childcare could send the children, at least the numbers would be lower so less mixing.

That is very eloquently explained RattleOfBars.

Thank you so much for putting yourselves in harm's way to care for your patients.

Teachers supported NHS staff back at the start. Our tech departments made visors, textiles made scrubs and masks. Of course we all clapped and donated as well because we were shocked at the conditions you were working in.

It’s a shame that the support isn’t going both ways.

@TheRubyRedshoes

Mistressiggi Wed 25-Nov-20 17:57:49

I do not think you or any ta or teacher can do the same job to the same standards and that should go without saying an no one should expect it.

Ha, try telling that to the SLT! Lesson observations, learning walks, book scrutinies, performance management...all happening as per normal where I work and in many schools.

@ancientgran

RattleOfBars but why should that mean teachers can't have any protection. You say you only get plastic aprons, gloves and the standard surgical mask but you don't explain why teachers and TAs can't have those, do you wear them for fun or do you think they matter? If they don't matter why was there all the fuss about not enough PPE earlier in the year. You can't have it both ways, well you can because that is what Boris has decreed but why?

A lot of teachers don’t want to wear a mask because it makes communication pretty difficult. They are free to do so at our school. Wearing a visor does the sum total of nothing, they are splash guards only. In some cases they are being recommended though. Teachers generate aerosols when teaching, they are far more likely to infect other people than the children are. Whilst there’s a lot of talk of masks on here, ventilation is the really vital thing as it removes aerosols. I’d much rather be mask less in a well ventilated space than wearing a mask with poor ventilation. Are all teachers doing this? Are they all able to? Masks are not the only protective measure. I was quite disappointed to see that teachers aren’t one of the groups earmarked for rapid testing, if there aren’t enough tests then at least those in areas of high incidence. The PPE which was particularly problematic was the actual respirator masks etc for aerosol generating procedures and high risk environments like ITU. I think you have to accept that a ward with every single patient covid positive and symptomatic (coughing) and use of oxygen and nebulisers which potentially increase spread is a different environment than a school with the chance of a pupil turning up with covid. Apparently we have huge stocks of PPE just sitting about as a result of over ordering so why not hand some out to schools for teachers. I agree that they’re not a magic bullet but as long as they’re used properly they’re not going to do any harm

@noblegiraffe

Teachers supported NHS staff back at the start. Our tech departments made visors, textiles made scrubs and masks. Of course we all clapped and donated as well because we were shocked at the conditions you were working in.

It’s a shame that the support isn’t going both ways.

I think this is rather unfair, I don’t see anywhere a suggestion of what teachers would like people to do? If you say ‘we need visors/scrubs made’ etc that’s pretty easy to help out with. If you say ‘please sign my petition to introduce masks for teachers’ that’s easy to help out with. The NHS charities are about patient care, they’re not a charity for staff

Yes but the charities were supportive of what NHS staff were going through.

I didn’t see people going “what do you want PPE for anyway, it doesn’t work”.

And recognition that maybe going into small crammed classrooms with 30-odd kids facing you and breathing at you while knowing that some of them probably have covid because the year group is dropping like flies is pretty stressful would be more supportive than ‘we have it worse because you’re not having to do x’.

Teachers get enough shit from the government massaging the figures to make it look like 30 kids in a classroom breathing at you is just fine, and having them come on MN to lie at us some more.

"I think this is rather unfair, I don’t see anywhere a suggestion of what teachers would like people to do?

People say NHS carried on risks of the job etc but

The NHS has been allowed to reduce services and capacity to increase covid security. Schools are banned from Reducing service or contact time in any way.

The NHS has extra resources and spending to cope including nightingales etc. Schools have got nothing.

Over time measures have been put in place to improve safety for NHS staff. Billions spent on ppe etc. Every decision the government has made has made since the summer has increased infection rates at school. The NHS staff get weekly tests to try and reduce infections at hospitals. Schools get no testing or extra measures no mAtter how many staff or pupils get infected.

Nobody gaslights NHS staff and pretends it is safe in hospitals. The one figures recently showed that teachers have higher Infection rates than NHS staff. This was manipulated by ignori g nearly 8000 cases in education staff who hadn't specified if they were primary or secondary.

What do school staff want? How about

Transparency/ publication of infections figures in staff and kids. The department of education collect this I think.
Schools allowed to see test results or have kids stay off for 14 day isolation if parents don't agree. Too many send kids back in after cough has eased and lie about having a test.

Maybe mass testing in schools In all tier 3 areas or where a school has an outbreak
Might be an idea to.vaccinate staff to keep schools open. Lots of people still think staff cause the I regions in school so if this is true why not vaccinate?

Right now it rely feels like no one cares if staff at school get infected, the spiralling infections in schools age kids and staff is ignored or even lied about.

I wrote an email on the 'govt is encouraging the spread of covid in schools' thread for people to copy and email their MPs if they want something to do.

Theres been far too much disruption to education as it is! YABVU

And you don't think there'll be disruption in January after all the people who most "disbelieve" in Covid have mixed the most all over Christmas and then send their poorly children into school (as they are doing now)?

@walksen

"I think this is rather unfair, I don’t see anywhere a suggestion of what teachers would like people to do?

People say NHS carried on risks of the job etc but

The NHS has been allowed to reduce services and capacity to increase covid security. Schools are banned from Reducing service or contact time in any way.

The NHS has extra resources and spending to cope including nightingales etc. Schools have got nothing.

Over time measures have been put in place to improve safety for NHS staff. Billions spent on ppe etc. Every decision the government has made has made since the summer has increased infection rates at school. The NHS staff get weekly tests to try and reduce infections at hospitals. Schools get no testing or extra measures no mAtter how many staff or pupils get infected.

Nobody gaslights NHS staff and pretends it is safe in hospitals. The one figures recently showed that teachers have higher Infection rates than NHS staff. This was manipulated by ignori g nearly 8000 cases in education staff who hadn't specified if they were primary or secondary.

What do school staff want? How about

Transparency/ publication of infections figures in staff and kids. The department of education collect this I think.
Schools allowed to see test results or have kids stay off for 14 day isolation if parents don't agree. Too many send kids back in after cough has eased and lie about having a test.

Maybe mass testing in schools In all tier 3 areas or where a school has an outbreak
Might be an idea to.vaccinate staff to keep schools open. Lots of people still think staff cause the I regions in school so if this is true why not vaccinate?

Right now it rely feels like no one cares if staff at school get infected, the spiralling infections in schools age kids and staff is ignored or even lied about.

Brilliant post

And... Extra cases spread by all the mixing in schools in January, affecting school staff and wider family/community members will cause extra pressure on the NHS.

It shouldn't be us against them.

I might have missed this in 32 pages of comments, but why don’t teachers wear PPE? Use hand sanitiser regularly? Yes a face mask protects others more than yourself but they do offer you some protection. And if it’s ably communication- do you think clinicians remove their face masks to speak to patients? It would be utterly pointless then wearing one if they did.

Do you have access to hand sanitiser in your classrooms and staff room?

Do you have a maximum number of staff to be in the staff room at any give time?

Do the students work from the same desk all day or if not, are they sanitised at the end of every lesson?

The above are all pretty basic ways of keeping a room COVID secure, we’ve been doing this since March and in a workplace that is normally rife with bugs and germs, none of us have been poorly. It actually requires everyone to take some responsibility though.

How crowded is the classroom? The way some posters are commenting it’s like a mosh pit full of tanked up teenagers. I don’t remember getting too close to my teachers- they were at the front of the room teaching whole students all sat behind desks.

but why should that mean teachers can't have any protection. You say you only get plastic aprons, gloves and the standard surgical mask but you don't explain why teachers and TAs can't have those, do you wear them for fun or do you think they matter? If they don't matter why was there all the fuss about not enough PPE earlier in the year

I do think teachers should have PPE if they want it.
I’m just pointing out surgical masks, pinnies and gloves won’t protect the TEACHER or TA much. In hospitals we wear surgical masks, scrubs and overalls to give the patients some protection (in case we’re asymptomatic carriers and also to reduce cross-infection, as we change PPE between patients). Our Trust Guidelines say only wear gloves for close contact procedures like washing someone or taking blood, not all day.
Visors only if in close contact with a covid-positive patient or suspected positive, then visor, gloves, overall and mask go straight into a biohazard bag after contact. Visors give staff some protection against bodily fluids splashing your face, but unless you’re looking into someone’s mouth or swabbing their nose/tonsils, or they’re spitting, there’s not much risk of bodily fluids entering your eyes/mouth/nose.

I’m not sure what type of PPE teachers are lobbying for. I think you underestimate the protection it would give you and how much it would cost the school!

That is very eloquently explained RattleOfBars. Thank you so much for putting yourselves in harm's way to care for your patients

Thank you, that means a lot ❤️

The PPE which was particularly problematic was the actual respirator masks etc for aerosol generating procedures and high risk environments like ITU. I think you have to accept that a ward with every single patient covid positive and symptomatic (coughing) and use of oxygen and nebulisers which potentially increase spread is a different environment than a school with the chance of a pupil turning up with covid.

So the NHS staff who went public complaining that it was OK for the staff on covid wards who got protection but they got nothing didn't really need anything? The ones who complained about having to use bin bags as there were no aprons available? Why are NHS staff bothering to wear those masks that do nothing? How about the carers in homes, they wanted gloves, aprons and masks. Are you saying that the billions spent on those billions of items was just wasted because they don't do anything?

Of course they help, do you think we are all stupid. No one is claiming they are 100% effective but they help. It also helps that the NHS reduced numbers, clinics cancelled, online consultations which are still happening. Schools could be less crowded, rotas could be used, why can the NHS effectively do the same thing but schools can't.

I'm told that in schools local to me teachers are not allowed to wear masks, at times there is no sanitiser available, children are sent in even with symptoms. I've seen all the doors, windows wide open to try to improve ventilation and children trying to work with coats and gloves on. Great learning environment, I wonder if some of those kids would prefer a rota with fewer people in the room and a safer environment without having to freeze and that will only get worse as we go through December and January.

People claim to care about education, claim they want children in school but no one seems prepared to do anything to make that possible.

I’m just pointing out surgical masks, pinnies and gloves won’t protect the TEACHER or TA much. Much being a very important word. As a well known retailer tells us, "every little helps."

Visors only if in close contact with a covid-positive patient or suspected positive, then visor, gloves, overall and mask go straight into a biohazard bag after contact. Visors give staff some protection against bodily fluids splashing your face, but unless you’re looking into someone’s mouth or swabbing their nose/tonsils, or they’re spitting, there’s not much risk of bodily fluids entering your eyes/mouth/nose.

Well that isn't how it is across the NHS. I explained earlier how my GP was dressed when I saw them. I have no Covid symptoms, the issue I was seeing GP about is a genetic condition my family carries and I had a symptom of that. I was wearing a mask, the GP wasn't looking at my face. So how come she had scrubs, gloves, apron, mask and visor?

I’m not sure what type of PPE teachers are lobbying for. I think you underestimate the protection it would give you and how much it would cost the school! I think what teachers would like is for people to stop pretending they are in a covid safe environment. From teachers I've spoken to they would like rotas or some other measure to prevent overcrowding in classrooms, they'd like to be permitted to wear masks if they choose to, they'd like the school to have adequate supplies of soap and hand sanitiser. However, I'm not a teacher, my children are adults so maybe ask one of the teachers on here what they would like and listen to them.

Billions have been found for the NHS, billions have been wasted on things like unsatisfactory PPE, billions have been spent on contracts with the friends of ministers so considering how important everyone thinks it is to keep schools open maybe they could spare a bit of that for schools.

Part of the school holiday for many children will cover part the two weeks but I think once things have lapsed for the 5 days many people will be tempted to add just another day or two or make up for one of the days a week or so later

We shall no doubt have a lockdown in January (probably) a tougher lockdown but we have been warned of this

walksen your suggestions for increased testing in schools, vaccination of teachers, greater transparency of stats are sound. Totally with you on those, and happy to add my voice to those requests.

However, I find the anti-NHS narrative running through this thread really disturbing. So many teachers have basically said 'what the doctors are doing isn't so extraordinary' that I think there must be some kind of agenda being pushed by someone, which has been repeated until individual teachers start to believe the rhetoric and shift their feeling of grievance onto the NHS. Not sure who is pushing it, maybe unethical government advisors trying to divert criticism? Or unions pushing their members' interests with laser focus/at any cost?

I'm neither a health care professional nor a teacher. I do have many friends who are both, and have spoken to them throughout the pandemic, and have a lot of respect for what they have done - in both professions.

It's not a contest. And it's not zero-sum. Doctors having access to appropriate PPE when treating patients who have tested positive; being tested regularly to prevent them spreading covid (given that they are told to keep working with symptoms); cancelling non-urgent operations to keep capacity for an expected influx of critically ill patients... None of these things have any bearing on the very different risks in schools and what can be done to mitigate those.

I'm going to write to my MP to ask for better publication of stats, regular testing in schools in areas with more cases, adding teachers to the vaccination list. I'm against closing the schools: I don't think that's the right solution.

Teachers - please stop and think about the rhetoric you're hearing. And focus on the positive changes you want introduced, rather than divisive negativity.

@GettingAwayWithIt

Do you have access to hand sanitiser in your classrooms and staff room?

Yes. Students and staff use it when they enter and when they leave. I also encourage use if they touch their face. We do not have a staff room. Most eat/drink in their rooms, outside or in their car. We have to bring in all food and drink; there are no staff facilities unless you smuggle a kettle in and hide it.

Do you have a maximum number of staff to be in the staff room at any give time?

No staff room. See above.

Do the students work from the same desk all day or if not, are they sanitised at the end of every lesson?

Nope, students move around. Desks and chairs are sanitised between lessons students wipe them down. No equipment is shared at all.

The above are all pretty basic ways of keeping a room COVID secure, we’ve been doing this since March and in a workplace that is normally rife with bugs and germs, none of us have been poorly. It actually requires everyone to take some responsibility though.

We are now on over 70 student positive for covid and 8 staff. 2 staff hospitalised.

How crowded is the classroom? The way some posters are commenting it’s like a mosh pit full of tanked up teenagers. I don’t remember getting too close to my teachers- they were at the front of the room teaching whole students all sat behind desks.

Very crowded. My room was built for 28 and the largest class is 34. I cannot be 2 metres from them at all, so I am near to access my computer and to access the door. Windows and doors are open at all times, I have a mask on 99% of the time.

I also have a class of 24 Year 13s, and they are in a smaller classroom. When we have to do practicals (which the exam boards for both A Levels and BTEC demand) I have to mix with the students or it would be unsafe. They have to be close to me for me to show them how to use equipment. Other A Level classes are of a similar size in the smaller rooms.

Corridors are like being in a mosh bit; if fact I've joked that it is like trying to get through the Christmas markets in the centre (we are in Manchester). And this is with only 1 year group being allowed to use the corridor at a time.

We can't stagger times due to the use of public transport. We have as much distance between 'bubbles' but that makes no difference when we find ourselves in the position where we have to report parents for having parties. Where we have parents sending in their child whilst the whole family waits for test results. this has happened several times and results (by direction of PHE) in the Year group closing. Or severla year groups closing when all the family are positive.