to think the 'I've known someone for years and I've never seen them (insert behaviour) ' defence is a crap defence?

[chomalungma]

Because just because you know someone, it doesn't ever mean that you really know them.

Or have seen what goes on when they are with other people
Or behind closed doors.

It's been used for years to allow people to get away with all kinds of things. Some truly awful things.

If you are using that defence to allow someone to get away with something, then you need to think about how that makes the victims feel.

Agree, all those people defending Depp spring to mind

It was used in the Catholic priest scandal.
Jimmy Saville.

So many people excusing / minimising / not seeing behaviour because they know the person and never saw them do it.

YANBU. My ex was lovely to my gran: respectful, gentle when helping her in and out of his car and utterly polite at all times. She thought he was the dogs bollocks.

My ex is also a fucking rapist and generally an unpleasant person to basically everyone- especially the women he’s in relationships with.

Yeah I instantly thought of Johnny Depp as well. Some people mask as decent humans quite well for most of the time

You're right OP, but at the same time I think it is a very natural human response. The way our brains work is to remember our past experiences and use them to build up a picture of a person. We find it hard when the reality doesn't seem to match our picture. Google cognitive dissonance for more info.

@Macncheeseballs

Agree, all those people defending Depp spring to mind

Yeah this really gets to me. And the reception the story around that court case got really highlights why so many women (including me) are so hesitant to report DV or sex crimes. Many don’t report at all. It’s party down to how the police and CPS handle it but also how society views the victims and their perpetrators.

It made me think of Priti Patel and various high status politicians coming out to say oh she wasn’t like that to me

Why is the truth a crap defence?

A witness can only speak from her own experience.

My stbx would fall into that category. People love him, charm personified. But utterly abusive, controlling, sociopath who I've spent years recovering from

all our 'truths' are different. Just because someones nice to you doesn't mean that's the truth for everyone.

@LastGoldenDaysOfSummer

Why is the truth a crap defence?

A witness can only speak from her own experience.

Because if people in authority dismiss an accusation against someone because they have never seen it, then what message does that send to the victim?

My parents said the same about someone (a friend actually) who was actually a serial killer. On the outside he portrayed to be a lovely bloke but that obviously wasn't the case. It shook my mum because she's a very good judge of character and she didn't even suspect. She found it very hard to believe based on her interactions with him. I think a lot of perpetrators are very clever and conceal themselves well.

@ExplodingCarrots

My parents said the same about someone (a friend actually) who was actually a serial killer. On the outside he portrayed to be a lovely bloke but that obviously wasn't the case. It shook my mum because she's a very good judge of character and she didn't even suspect. She found it very hard to believe based on her interactions with him. I think a lot of perpetrators are very clever and conceal themselves well.

Blimey that’s extreme. I should think your mum can forgive herself that one!

It’s definitely true that none of us knows what goes on behind closed doors.

I disagree. We all know who the shits are. People who are abusive to their partners, will have displayed the same behaviour to most or all their previous partners because abusive people abuse. Their family and friends usually know too but they're in denial. But they know, they make excuses, that's not the same as people who know that their loved one is decent, gentle and kind.

People are who they are rapists rape, abusers abuse, liars lie... But most people aren't rapists, abusers, we judge people based on our experience of them and their reputation, that can sometimes be wrong but everybody in their life won't be wrong.

Most people are good and decent. We do know who people are and I don't trust anybody who tells me that you don't know anybody in your life. That says a lot more about them than anyone they're projecting onto.

I know what my father/brother/husband/close friends/long term exes are and aren't capable of because I know them very well. If you pay attention, you'll know, good and bad.

Why would you be friends with or marry somebody if you truly believe that he couldn't possibly be kind, loving, moral and nice because there's no such thing?

If you look at a partner and think "he could be a rapist, abuser, killer...", you're either projecting your own malevolence or you're right because you're sensing who he is and should dump him. If I felt that about someone, I'd trust my instinct and leave.

If you told me one of my parents killed someone for money, bullshit. They wouldn't do that. They have morals and character.

You project on others what you believe about yourself. If you think nobody is capable of being good and anybody is capable of doing something horrendously evil, then you're speaking of yourself and those around you, that's your truth.

There are a lot of things I wouldn't do, my family wouldn't do, my friends wouldn't do, my exes wouldn't do...

That you assume others always would, says a lot more about you and the people you're around. Which incidently, makes you very high risk for abuse because you're around people you know have no moral boundaries.

Judge people on their character and their actions. What you assume about others, without evidence, is a projection of you.

Theoretically, when push comes to shove no one can ever really know another human being. Given the right set of variables, I'd say pretty much anything is possible for anyone.

But if this were a universal truth, laws like Clare's Law and Sarah's Law simply wouldn't be necessary. Yet we all know they are, and WHY they are. Some people are bad lots. They represent a danger to others. It's also not beyond the bounds of possibility that a person of 'previously good character' can degenerate. I'd be inclined to assume (along with the Judge and against the groundswell of baseless public opinion) that Johnny Depp is one who falls into that category.

The secrecy of the crime bears a huge chunk of lack of witnesses.

And I don’t think PP meant that they suspect everyone is a criminal Renee I think its more a culmination of female socialisation to be nice, and to override their gut instincts to be so.

And combine that with people not sharing concerns and/or no central place to cross-reference.

Then it really is word against word and the mental and emotional grooming and abuse in combination with the abuse itself leads the victim to be likely deemed ‘unreliable’ because of the effects.

And thats before you factor in the deliberate targeting of very vulnerable or less likely to be believed victims by abusers (children, LD’s, CSA survivors, those with MH issues) or abusers ‘off-setting’ their crimes by becoming very powerful (by job, money, fame etc)

If you pay attention, you'll know, good and bad.

You can't separate people into "good people" and "bad people" . Everyone is a mixture of both.

Nobody walks around thinking the people they love are capable of terrible things. Women don't start relationships with men thinking "yeh, this man is definitely going to rape me one day but that's cool".

If it makes you feel safer to believe people are this two dimensional and that you could always spot a rapist or murderer or abuser at 100 paces then fine. It's still not true, though.

@BarefootbyMoonlight

The secrecy of the crime bears a huge chunk of lack of witnesses.

And I don’t think PP meant that they suspect everyone is a criminal Renee I think its more a culmination of female socialisation to be nice, and to override their gut instincts to be so.

And combine that with people not sharing concerns and/or no central place to cross-reference.

Then it really is word against word and the mental and emotional grooming and abuse in combination with the abuse itself leads the victim to be likely deemed ‘unreliable’ because of the effects.

And thats before you factor in the deliberate targeting of very vulnerable or less likely to be believed victims by abusers (children, LD’s, CSA survivors, those with MH issues) or abusers ‘off-setting’ their crimes by becoming very powerful (by job, money, fame etc)

Very good points.

Although didn't depps ex's say he was ok as well

Sorry missed the point, abusers have the ability to lie and manipulate - its their key skill. They don’t just ‘happen’ to appear nice to others, its a cultivated persona and very much part of their plans.

They wouldn’t get far if people did see signs and went with their gut instinct (well off course this last bit isn’t true as we all know but one lives ever in hope)

I thought this when a former female colleague of John Leslie was at his recent trial stating that he'd always behaved like a gentleman towards her. it does not mean he is incapable of having sexually assaulted treated others in a less than gentlemanly fashion.

@ReneeRol

I disagree. We all know who the shits are. People who are abusive to their partners, will have displayed the same behaviour to most or all their previous partners because abusive people abuse. Their family and friends usually know too but they're in denial. But they know, they make excuses, that's not the same as people who know that their loved one is decent, gentle and kind.

People are who they are rapists rape, abusers abuse, liars lie... But most people aren't rapists, abusers, we judge people based on our experience of them and their reputation, that can sometimes be wrong but everybody in their life won't be wrong.

Most people are good and decent. We do know who people are and I don't trust anybody who tells me that you don't know anybody in your life. That says a lot more about them than anyone they're projecting onto.

I know what my father/brother/husband/close friends/long term exes are and aren't capable of because I know them very well. If you pay attention, you'll know, good and bad.

Why would you be friends with or marry somebody if you truly believe that he couldn't possibly be kind, loving, moral and nice because there's no such thing?

If you look at a partner and think "he could be a rapist, abuser, killer...", you're either projecting your own malevolence or you're right because you're sensing who he is and should dump him. If I felt that about someone, I'd trust my instinct and leave.

If you told me one of my parents killed someone for money, bullshit. They wouldn't do that. They have morals and character.

You project on others what you believe about yourself. If you think nobody is capable of being good and anybody is capable of doing something horrendously evil, then you're speaking of yourself and those around you, that's your truth.

There are a lot of things I wouldn't do, my family wouldn't do, my friends wouldn't do, my exes wouldn't do...

That you assume others always would, says a lot more about you and the people you're around. Which incidently, makes you very high risk for abuse because you're around people you know have no moral boundaries.

Judge people on their character and their actions. What you assume about others, without evidence, is a projection of you.

That's weird because I feel completely differently.

I dont trust anyone because I dont know what they're capable of. There are people I'd more surprised about, my husband, mother, little brother, I'd be incredibly shocked. But theres a lot of my family that despite never having done anything at all to be suspicious, I wouldn't be super shocked if child porn was found on their computer for example. I wouldn't refuse to accept it consider them innocent despite the evidence.

There are people you know in your gut are dangerous, but not everyone you think are safe truly are, that's how I feel anyway.

Yanbu. When someone turns out to be a serial killer and the press speak to their neighbours the neighbours say "He was polite. Kept himself to himself." They don't say "Oh yeah, he was always killing people come to think of it. I never thought to mention it before. I feel a bit silly now"