to think the 'I've known someone for years and I've never seen them (insert behaviour) ' defence is a crap defence?

[chomalungma]

Because just because you know someone, it doesn't ever mean that you really know them.

Or have seen what goes on when they are with other people
Or behind closed doors.

It's been used for years to allow people to get away with all kinds of things. Some truly awful things.

If you are using that defence to allow someone to get away with something, then you need to think about how that makes the victims feel.

Psychologically , your default behaviour pattern is set in childhood , by your experiences then: & the behaviour your parents model becomes your perception of 'normal', even itlf it's violent or dysfunctional . So usual behaviour can be a good indication of character. But there will always be those who pay lip service to social norms re 'good' behaviour while doing horrendous stuff in private. Hopefully,they are a (emotionally damaged themselves) minority.

YANBU, however, I’m not sure the Depp case is a good example. I think if you’ve been in a long term relationship with someone, you’d probably feel pretty confident that you had a good idea of how they’d be likely treat a subsequent partner, and if that was at odds with your own experience, it would be very difficult to believe.

YANBU. The Depp case seemed a toxic mix of two damaged people who brought out the worst in each other. Probably different partners experienced a radically different relationship with both, as the toxic dynamic was not as magnified.

Well, I've never seen X do Y is a pathetic way of people who want to live in denial say "I don't believe/want to believe you". It is horrible to hear especially for survivors of abuse.

Because if people in authority dismiss an accusation against someone because they have never seen it, then what message does that send to the victim?

That's all they can do. If they have no knowledge of any bad behaviour and have only seen good why on earth should they pretend otherwise?

Not everyone claiming to be a victim really is a victim.

If 99 people say a person has only ever been courteous and kind and 1 person says the opposite then, without evidence other than their word, I probably wouldn't believe them.

That's all they can do. If they have no knowledge of any bad behaviour and have only seen good why on earth should they pretend otherwise

Right now, Priti Patel has been accused of bullying. A report has been written where lots of people have given examples of bullying.

Boris Johnson seems to have dismissed this. He's asked people to rally around her - and lots of MPs have said that they have never seen any evidence of bullying and she's been nice to them.

But there is more than one person saying she is a bully. And the report says she is. Not the same thing at all.

Renee, your comment supports this defence. You think it’s possible to truly know someone but all you really know is how they treat you and behave in your presence. If abusers weren’t good at concealing who and what they are, they’d all be in prison.

As someone with a lot of experience of abuse within my family, I don’t believe for a second that everybody can tell. I don’t believe that every parent whose child is abused already knows that the abuser is a risk to children - perhaps some do and don’t care, that’s not the case for the vast majority. People look to their own experience for understanding and for red flags - if they haven’t seen any, they assume that means in innocence.

I could never say with any certainty that my husband, brother, other relatives have never abused anyone - how could I possibly know that? I obviously don’t think they’re abusive if they’re in my life, but I don’t know that.

Priti Patel is the opposite end of the spectrum - everything I’ve seen of her means I would be shocked if she weren’t a hideous bully

Rose West was pleasant enough the time I met her.

Doesn't mean she wasn't a cold blooded killer along with her husband though.

@nosswith

Rose West was pleasant enough the time I met her.

Doesn't mean she wasn't a cold blooded killer along with her husband though.

So? Superficial greetings with a stranger or acquaintance are just that. Her family weren't surprised at her actions because they knew her. That's the difference.

Yep especially as that’s one of the ways abusers control their victims by appearing so lovely that they couldn’t possibly have been abusive behind closed doors.
I think when it comes to the people that are close to you then you often know what they are capable of but then the most sadistic psychopaths are very good at hiding it

Trigger warning (possibly?) for abusive wording

And backing them up as being the ‘believe-able one’ is that they’ve taught their ‘unbelievable’ victims to lie as a defence mechanism (Don’t say I touched you/saw we were just cuddling/say you like me/want me to babysit)

So the audience, be it friends, family, society or, ultimately, maybe, a judge are pre-disposed to believe the up-standing, friendly, charming, popular, ‘together’, settled even, abuser

Versus (and only possibly, some, one or other)

Child/young adult/additional needs/mental health or otherwise vulnerable (pregnant, immigrant, new wife etc), or with any range of disability or vulnerability that makes them both exploitable and ’lower value’

Unfortunately lots of us, myself included, and maybe only at times, have automatically weighed an accusation as likely/unlikely, its a split second thing and fed by images/tv/laws/societal norms.

What’s important to me is catching myself doing it and deciding what I do with it.

So we should judge someone we know, based entirely on someone elses experience?

I dated a guy who with ME, was fine, no issues, but our relationship was casual, I never lived with him nor would I want to as the lifestyle he leads is not the lifestyle i wanted at the time.

Some years later (so I've now known this guy as a friend and a sexual partner for nearly a decade) a mutual friend starts a relationship with him, moves in with him, and after a few years starts telling me how he is alcoholic, abusive etc etc.

It is true he was neither alcoholic nor abusive with me.

It is also true he was alcoholic and abusive with her.

Both things are true, our experiences are different but neither is false.

I wouldn't defend the guy's behaviour with the other woman, but at the same time that was not my experience, there were no red flags, we had a different relationship with this man because we are different people, different context, peoples behaviour changes over time... lots of reasons.

It's what my abusive ex used to say and why I never went to the police. He was charming and a smooth talker. He used to tell me how my mum thought of him as a son so even she wouldn't believe me. I am sure she would have but I'll never find out.

The defending Johnny Depp , Jimmy Savile etc thing really baffles me because how can we, the public, know what celebrities are really like in real life? We only see them on the screen

@LoveMyKidsAndCats

It's what my abusive ex used to say and why I never went to the police. He was charming and a smooth talker. He used to tell me how my mum thought of him as a son so even she wouldn't believe me. I am sure she would have but I'll never find out.

am sorry that happened to you. I went through similar and it's shit. I had a friend, lovely lady, trained in trauma counselling etc..She was first person I told about my abusive childhood and young adulthood. Believed me for years . One day I was very low and left a suicidal message on her phone . She panicked and rang my parents and told them. My father was saying.how he loved me and would give his life for me. I think he did mean it in his own way, he had issues who h meant he was nice sometimes to us then abusive and controlling the next.

My friend told me I needed to stop wallowing in my bad childhood because my dad loves me and I should forget the past.

I thought she had believed me...it hurt me and had a kind of breakdown over it. Is been battling self harm but hadn't done it for some time and I slashed myself to pieces that day. Now I look back and realise the fact she phoned my parents means she stopped believing me long before this. She always used to promise me she would never contact them as she knew they weren't safe for my mental health

Sorry I K ow this isn't as bad as what you went through, not even close but I do relate to the not being believed

@SinkGirl

Priti Patel is the opposite end of the spectrum - everything I’ve seen of her means I would be shocked if she weren’t a hideous bully

Plus she has actually apologised (in a fashion) for her actions which means she has been abusive to people, and is desperate for damage limitation, and Boris still supports her.

I think we'll all look at her differently now. Horrible woman

I don’t believe you can always tell if someone is bad. I worked closely with a man for years, he was lovely, friendly, and considerate. I knew him and his family well, socialised regularly etc. Everyone in the office liked him.

He was eventually fired for viewing child porn on a work laptop. He’s now in prison for multiple rapes and a murder.

@TalkingToMyselfAndFeelingOld

The defending Johnny Depp , Jimmy Savile etc thing really baffles me because how can we, the public, know what celebrities are really like in real life? We only see them on the screen

I agree with you in part. The Johnny Depp thing is made more bizarre because all his previous partners stuck up for him. That is why I questioned the accusations, but not defended him. You cannot defend a man who is violent to a woman in any circumstances, but I doubt those circumstances will ever arise again.

We can only go on what we see, and then re-evaluate by what we learn.

It infuriates me when people point out an abuser was ok with a different person and then shrug it off as different people bring out different sides of people. A guy who cheats/steals/hits women etc is an arsehole full stop. You only need to do one of those things once to be an unpleasant person- doesn't matter that you haven't been an arsehole to every single person you've met.

I've also met a couple of very nice convicted con artists, plus a rapist/murderer (in a work related context), couldn't have been more charming and pleasant. Should I judge them by my experience of them or their victims?

I know what my father/brother/husband/close friends/long term exes are and aren't capable of because I know them very well. If you pay attention, you'll know, good and bad.

This is bullshit. My exDH hit his ex. Never hit me. I KNOW he hit her.

My friend was sexually abused by his scout leader. Police investigation and everything. My other friend, same scout troop, nothing and doesn't believe anything happened.

My friend was sexually abused by her grandfather, he didn't touch her sister. He was a delightful man. Except for the child rape.

You never know.

I admit I stopped following the Johnny depp libel case as it seemed that Amber heard was just as abusive if not more so. I didn't see an imbalance of power within that relationship but two people just as bad as the other. Of course that doesn't mean that legally Depp didn't assault her. He could have committed acts of abuse at sa!e.time.as being abused hi!self by Ms Heard.

He may have in the legal sense abused her . But I don't it into the narrative that this aS an ordinary abuse case where one partner is terrified of the other constantly and so ground down they can't leave . People like my mum, for example. Amber heard isn't that vulnerable from what ive.seen

However, am guessing the court had more info than I do. We only see a tiny snapshot of a celebrity....

@TalkingToMyselfAndFeelingOld

I admit I stopped following the Johnny depp libel case as it seemed that Amber heard was just as abusive if not more so. I didn't see an imbalance of power within that relationship but two people just as bad as the other. Of course that doesn't mean that legally Depp didn't assault her. He could have committed acts of abuse at sa!e.time.as being abused hi!self by Ms Heard.

He may have in the legal sense abused her . But I don't it into the narrative that this aS an ordinary abuse case where one partner is terrified of the other constantly and so ground down they can't leave . People like my mum, for example. Amber heard isn't that vulnerable from what ive.seen

However, am guessing the court had more info than I do. We only see a tiny snapshot of a celebrity....

You'll get flamed on here for thinking he isn't fully to blame :)

However, like you say we don't know the full story, but it will all come out in the wash