Covid vaccine and camping group...

[earsup]

AIBU to have left one of the camping / van groups I belong to as some very vocal organisers insist any future attendance only allowed if attendees are vaccinated..!
Brief background...its a voluntary group...we all share tasks so pay very little for the 2 week camping...some cook, others collect litter etc...its generally quite pleasant....however some members started a poll and a survey about attendance and vaccination...myself and 3 others objected....stated that vaccine is personal choice...I also stated I would personally be unhappy about having such a recent vaccine with no lenghty trials....myself and the others who questioned the reasoning of attendence with vaccine recieved abuse...called selfish, murderers, irresponsible etc....no reasoning with those group members so we have all left it and deleted our profiles...feel relieved...the abuse was relentless..bombarded with death stats etc..

Is this likely to be an upcoming issue though? How old are they all? Anyone healthy under 50 will be at the back of the queue and may not get the vaccine at all. I have seen a few of these arguments recently, when most people won't even be eligible any time soon.

YANBU - regardless of your stance on this vaccine or other vaccines. They sound like a bunch of small minded bullies.

@Personofinterest1 but what about the flu vaccine though? That is only given to those who are most at risk from becoming seriously ill or even dying from the flu while everyone else who is not at such risk is not vaccinated.

For a large majority of people covid is likely to cause mild symptoms (if any) so I don't understand why they need the vaccine if those that are at risk of complications have a 90% chance of not getting ill if they catch it. Of course there will be some vulnerable people who are unable to be vaccinated or the vaccine won't work for them but that is the same with flu vaccine.

I suppose I'm just confused by all this talk of vaccine passports and not getting back to normal for a long time. The reason for sd, restrictions and lockdown is to protect the vulnerable and stop the NHS from getting overwhelmed. If the vast majority of those most likely to end up in hospital have had the vaccine then covid will not overwhelm the NHS. Those vulnerable people will have around 90% protection from getting sick (if they catch it).

I think that the vaccines are amazing news and, if I am offered one, then I'll happily have it. But I think that people are jumping the gun a bit by being prepared to ostracise others already.

@MynephewR well you see covid is not the flu. The flu has not caused a worldwide pandemic. So we need herd immunity for covid which then requires large numbers of people to get vaccinated. Hope this clears it up for you.

I would protest against anyone/group etc who insisted that being vaccinated was a condition of attendance. Where on earth would that end? Everyone has a choice.

Btw I am not an antivaxer. My family are all up to date with vaccinations. I am pro choice

I would protest against anyone/group etc who insisted that being vaccinated was a condition of attendance. Where on earth would that end? Everyone has a choice.

Yeah, and they can make the choice not to let you attend if you don't have the vaccine. Choice works both ways.

@skeptile

Um, the 90% effective was announced by Pfizer in a press release, with no data, no peer review, and the trial incomplete. Pfizer's CEO sold a shitload of shares the same day, at huge profit - totally unexpected of course, that the share price would go up when the 'success' was announced. Who could have predicted it?

This above and what @donquixotedelamancha said. That's my understanding from what has been released so far. I haven't seen any published details of the trial outcomes nor safety data yet.

YANBU OP

I’m not anti vax and take the flu jab each year to underlying conditions

I’m alarmed by the fact that some people suddenly seem to want vaccines as a condition for everything. It tips us into a very dark place.

One of my most vulnerable friends can’t have vaccines because of her immune conditions. A future of asking people to declare their health to join anything seems a dangerous precedent to set.

AcornAutumn

Maybe the criteria would only be initially until it felt the virus was more under control then relaxed

I haven't seen any published details of the trial outcomes nor safety data yet.

Safety data isn't out to the public yet but it's being studied by several major public health authorities. It's already passed stage 1 and 2 and the type of vaccine isn't prone to big uncertainty.

I'd bet my house it will pass safety.

I've seen some preliminary figures on efficacy about where the 90% comes from. I wouldn't be surprised if that 90% doesn't hold in the real world and I doubt we'll see peer reviewed data before its already in widespread use. Doesn't matter: it's effective, efficacious and safe- that'll ding dang do for now.

My only point before was that people should stop expecting herd immunity or a magic bullet, that is some way off.

for herd immunity....like all other vaccines

It's not that sort of vaccine. Actually most vaccines aren't that sort of vaccine. Unsurprisingly the ones given to the whole population as children do provide sterilising immunity, so they are the most familiar.

If a vaccine is even 90% effective, if there’s a group of 10 vaccinated then 1 person may not be protected. That’s not too bad if enough of the country are also vaccinated, but if they’re then spending time in close proximity with people who are unvaccinated, the chances of that person catching it rise considerably.
With strangers, say in a restaurant, no-one would know, but in a social group, where there is a chance to try to socialise with people who are less risky, it seems reasonable on their part to protect themselves and their families.

They were wrong to be abusive about it, but beyond that, you can’t blame them for being careful.

If you choose not to have the vaccine I think you need to prepare yourself for more of this.

I expect many countries will insist on proof of vaccination to cross their border and I think you'll find you may well potentially find yourself excluded from activities like concerts, theatres etc.

Your choice, as you say, not to be vaccinated but also, equally and quite fairly, it's also the choice of others not to mix with you because of it.

@Nothowiexpected

AcornAutumn

Maybe the criteria would only be initially until it felt the virus was more under control then relaxed

That doesn’t change the problems I raised.

You're entitled to choose not to be vaccinated, but that choice may have consequences for you. That's life in a pandemic. Abuse and name calling are never helpful or acceptable.

I'm NHS and my Trust is rolling out the Pfizer vaccine starting early December. It'll be going to all staff, not just frontline clinical, because someone sensible has recognised that health trusts don't run if their back office and support functions are crippled by sickness. So I will be in the first wave being offered it.

I am saying hell yeah.

@pointythings

You're entitled to choose not to be vaccinated, but that choice may have consequences for you. That's life in a pandemic. Abuse and name calling are never helpful or acceptable.

I'm NHS and my Trust is rolling out the Pfizer vaccine starting early December. It'll be going to all staff, not just frontline clinical, because someone sensible has recognised that health trusts don't run if their back office and support functions are crippled by sickness. So I will be in the first wave being offered it.

I am saying hell yeah.

How are trusts deciding which vaccine to use, or is it just which one arrives earlier? I understand there’s a big difference in cost?

Sorry, OP, just sneaked that in there as I’m curious.

@donquixotedelamancha sorry so you’re saying if there is full take up of the vaccine by everyone except those who can’t for medical reasons take the vaccine then those people would have no protection against the virus? That makes zero sense to me.

I don,t disagree with you regarding vaccines but i wouldn,t leave. I would just reminfd them that the vaccine isn,t even around yet. And which vaccine were they refering to?

sorry so you’re saying if there is full take up of the vaccine by everyone except those who can’t for medical reasons take the vaccine then those people would have no protection against the virus?

They would have protection against the disease. The disease is modified so that vaccinated people have little or no symptoms, much like a large part of the population do.

We do not yet know whether any vaccine protects against the virus (i.e. creates a significant antibody response in future infection). Given the nature of the vaccines it's likely there will be some immunity comparable to what the virus itself would produce; so a likely scenario might be 6 months immunity with CV people needing vaccination each year.

If this were so then given the continued spread of the virus through the less vulnerable population we'd probably fatalities declining to where we could be relatively normal within a few years because a kind of temporary herd immunity for big chunks of the population would mean it just couldn't spread as fast. In that scenario a few tens of thousands might die each year from Covid, but nothing like the worst case now.

Of course hopefully we will have more effective vaccine candidates, it's just not looking likely to be these first 3.

Well, camping together is voluntary. People are entitled to decide whether they're willing to camp with others who've chosen not be vaccinated. It's not up to anybody other than the individuals - not the organiser, and not those who've chosen not to have the vaccine.

@CarolinaPink

Well, camping together is voluntary. People are entitled to decide whether they're willing to camp with others who've chosen not be vaccinated. It's not up to anybody other than the individuals - not the organiser, and not those who've chosen not to have the vaccine.

This will, um, spread...pardon the pun

So people won’t want to camp near to another group who haven’t been vaccinated etc...

@AcornAutumn "So people won’t want to camp near to another group who haven’t been vaccinated etc..."

Presumably that's what will happen.

How are trusts deciding which vaccine to use, or is it just which one arrives earlier? I understand there’s a big difference in cost?

For once the cost is not an issue! Several vaccines have been ordered and the Pfizer one will arrive first. The first in the queue are the over 80s, carers and NHS. Technically that’s front line NHS, but as the PP pointed out, if the back room staff keel over the whole house of cards falls down, so I guess we’ll all be swept up at pretty much the same time, and we’ll get the Pfizer one.

By the time the next vaccines arrive we’ll have moved on to the subsequent cohorts, so there are likely to be several vaccines in use at the same time (presumably in different locations).

The Pfizer one is a tricky customer as it’s to be stored at -80C with only a few days at fridge temperature, so its use is going to be easiest in hospitals and large sites; the ones with the easier cold chains will be easier to use in the community setting.

[quote CarolinaPink]@AcornAutumn "So people won’t want to camp near to another group who haven’t been vaccinated etc..."

Presumably that's what will happen.[/quote]
So it’s all bit silly saying you don’t want an unvaccinated person in your group.

Although this is what governments want - people feeling obliged to take it.

Thank you Janet, yes, I guess they are paid for already.

I wonder if vaccination exemption is going to become the new mask exemption on here, ie no-one is exempt enough, or if you are you should "stay the fuck at home".