Covid vaccine and camping group...

[earsup]

AIBU to have left one of the camping / van groups I belong to as some very vocal organisers insist any future attendance only allowed if attendees are vaccinated..!
Brief background...its a voluntary group...we all share tasks so pay very little for the 2 week camping...some cook, others collect litter etc...its generally quite pleasant....however some members started a poll and a survey about attendance and vaccination...myself and 3 others objected....stated that vaccine is personal choice...I also stated I would personally be unhappy about having such a recent vaccine with no lenghty trials....myself and the others who questioned the reasoning of attendence with vaccine recieved abuse...called selfish, murderers, irresponsible etc....no reasoning with those group members so we have all left it and deleted our profiles...feel relieved...the abuse was relentless..bombarded with death stats etc..

@RainingBatsAndFrogs we all know that anyway. It's in the papers!!

@Obbydoo

Hopefully those that refuse the vaccine will be banned from public places. Why should responsible people who have the vaccine carry the irresponsible ones that don't?

What you mean the same way that so many haven't given a flying f during the pandemic and have spread it, just so they could still go to the pub, restaurants, on holiday etc?

I know many vulnerable people who are, like me, in the "not right now" camp for any covid vaccine. Reality for many is they'll continue to shield to some extent and will need to continue doing so for 18 months plus regardless of vaccine roll out.

The really sad thing is that this whole agenda of losing our rights to make our own health choices has far bigger potential repercussions than just the covid vaccine. Do you really want to be in a position where your treatment can be enforced? And you have no choices....

For me, I have huge allergies and medication is a real minefield. I'll continue as I am, shielding, until much further down the line.... And luckily right now we're not living in a country that thinks I shouldn't have any health autonomy.

The 90% figure is about it's ability in disease modification, not immunity. It stops people getting ill, not from getting and passing on the virus.

Where’s your evidence for this?

Only about 30% of the population will get the vaccine because the remainder will get little benefit from it to justify the cost. So there will be no herd immunity from the vaccine.

Where’s your evidence for this too?

I think it's an unfair selection criteria. What if someone has an auto immune condition, can't have the Oxford vaccine and prefers to wait for a later non live vaccine?

The Pfizer vaccine will be first, and isn't live.

I hate how the debate on this particular vaccine has fallen into pro- and anti- camps already. I have vaccinated my children against the usual childhood diseases and am broadly pro vaccines as in I see their use in public health as desirable. However, I may choose not to have this vaccine a) yet and b) ever or c) there are different ones anyway! That's because my own personal risk is reasonably low, my children's is even lower, and it is probably similar to how I feel towards my flu risk, which the gov't has decided isn't that high either and GP turned me down for vaccination when I asked in Sept. I won't feel 'guilty' about not protecting others, because they can have the vaccine in the vast majority of cases, and they will be at the front of the queue. I will be at the back and weigh it up as the decision becomes a reality which, if BoJo's organization of the flu vaccine is anything to go by, won't be for ages anyway, if ever.

By the time my turn comes around there might be more safety data and multiple vaccine choices, or I might just choose to do a rapid test on the day I want to do something. Covid-19 rates will be so low by then I think the whole thing of having to carry vaccination certificates will go away, Covid-19 isn't spreading quite as aggressively as was predicted even right now, so I don't know why we would predict it would be worse in 6 months time.

This polarisation of every fucking issue is so tiresome.

Where’s your evidence for this?

The data released by the companies producing the vaccines. They are only comparing proportions getting serious illness in the two groups, not trying to measure transmission. Long term immunity will only become apparent during phase 4 after large scale vaccination and longitudinal study.

Where’s your evidence for this too?

The government haven't bought enough of the Pfizer one to vaccinate the country. There would be no point- it's very expensive and most people do not get a serious case. Every communication from the government has made clear they are targeting vulnerable groups.

If phase 4 were to reveal long term immunity from one of these vaccines then that would hopefully change, but given the nature of Coronaviruses that's unlikely.

I would hope we will get a sterilising immunity vaccine (not least because that will open some interesting possibilities for other viruses) but I doubt it will be from one of the early vaccines

As always some people think putting your point across with a sledgehammer is going to change people's minds.

Spoiler alert, it's not!

If you want people to get vaccinated, telling them that they're stupid, ignorant, selfish anti vaxxers isn't going to work.
Understanding people worries, showing evidence to studies, reassuring people is the way forward

As someone who can't get the vaccine due to medical reasons, I am reliant on enough healthy people having it to make it safe for me. If I were in your camping group, I would have to leave if there were unvaccinated people in it, - perhaps there are vulnerable people in the group?

Unfortunately without people getting the vaccine, a significant amount of chronically very unwell people will simply not be able to rejoin society. Think how awful isolation is, and then imagine doing that for the rest of your life. I am truly relying on the civic spirit and goodness of everyone else. It's both frightening and awe-inspiring, depending on the day.

I would never want to pressure people, I just wanted to share my thoughts and concerns on a very personal level. It somehow seems like people in my position are not mentioned much in the vax debate.

I'm so grateful for all the people who will get the vaccine, enormously so. I just hope enough people do so to make it safe for people like me.

called selfish, murderers, irresponsible etc....no reasoning with those group members so we have all left it and deleted our profiles...feel relieved...the abuse was relentless..bombarded with death stats etc..

You'll get the same bollocks on here too op.

Um, the 90% effective was announced by Pfizer in a press release, with no data, no peer review, and the trial incomplete. Pfizer's CEO sold a shitload of shares the same day, at huge profit - totally unexpected of course, that the share price would go up when the 'success' was announced. Who could have predicted it?

MotherExtraordinaire I don't think anyone is talking about enforced compulsory vaccination of anyone.

And for most reasonable people who are in agreement with widespread vaccination of course it is understood that there will be groups of people who cannot / should not be vaccinated. As with every vaccine. And masks. It's just the disclaimers, which cover common sense, get tedious to type.

@earsup

AIBU to have left one of the camping / van groups I belong to as some very vocal organisers insist any future attendance only allowed if attendees are vaccinated..! Brief background...its a voluntary group...we all share tasks so pay very little for the 2 week camping...some cook, others collect litter etc...its generally quite pleasant....however some members started a poll and a survey about attendance and vaccination...myself and 3 others objected....stated that vaccine is personal choice...I also stated I would personally be unhappy about having such a recent vaccine with no lenghty trials....myself and the others who questioned the reasoning of attendence with vaccine recieved abuse...called selfish, murderers, irresponsible etc....no reasoning with those group members so we have all left it and deleted our profiles...feel relieved...the abuse was relentless..bombarded with death stats etc..

Gosh, because that sort of thing never happens on Mumsnet.... people being called selfish and murderers because they went for a coffee or down the pub....

I think they are unreasonable (and it will be unenforceable I suspect, since there won't be any "vaccine passports" just like you don't get one for flu - assuming you qualify for the vaccine anyway). But I think you are unreasonable as well - you clearly have no concept about how vaccines are developed in this century.

But you are all normal functioning adults. Ostensibly. You may mix with, or not mix with, anyone you want for whatever ridiculous reasons you can all dream up.

‘Covid-19 isn't spreading quite as aggressively as was predicted even right now’

Anything to do with lockdown do ya reckon

Another anti vax thread. Yay.

The data released by the companies producing the vaccines. They are only comparing proportions getting serious illness in the two groups, not trying to measure transmission. Long term immunity will only become apparent during phase 4 after large scale vaccination and longitudinal study.

Well, quite. So your claim that it doesn’t stop the virus being passed on is incorrect. We do not know yet.

The government haven't bought enough of the Pfizer one to vaccinate the country. There would be no point- it's very expensive and most people do not get a serious case. Every communication from the government has made clear they are targeting vulnerable groups.

The government has bought enough Pfizer vaccine alone for 30% of the population. The Moderna and Oxford vaccines have also been ordered and will be used. The intention is to have the whole of the adult population vaccinated by April. www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-nhs-drafts-plan-to-vaccinate-adults-in-england-by-april/

I think they are unreasonable (and it will be unenforceable I suspect, since there won't be any "vaccine passports" just like you don't get one for flu

Why not? You need something similar to travel to lots of countries. You need to prove you've been vaccinated.

I wasn't allowed study at a UK university until I could prove I'd had certain vaccinations. And I only came from Ireland!

A vaccination certificate would be a very sensible thing to have!

@Hugosmugo

Another anti vax thread. Yay.

But with lashings and lashings of ginger beer and a jolly good fistycuffs in a tent

Gosh..!..as stated, I am adopting a wait and see policy....no rushing into getting vaccinated my self.....I just think its unfortunate how extreme the views become on this topic...my camping group were so extreme in their views and didnt consider any sensible discussion etc...something i thought may happen on here !!...its really possible that certs may be needed for future travel and group events etc....this was the first instance of such a suggestion and not sure why the camping group have made such an early decision on this....and i am not only thinking of myself....that was an unfair comment..!!.....I was dissapointed that members of the camping group just repeated tabloid headlines at me...I am not dim...retired teacher here...!

I know there have been issues with vaccines in the past (e.g. smallpox and whooping cough) but are we meant to stay in lockdown for a decade in case one of the guinea pigs develops a twitch?

And I would say I'm immensely grateful to those who have done the trial for the benefit of the rest if us.

@donquixotedelamancha

The vaccines are looking to about 90% effective. That means the other 10% will have to rely on herd immunity.

Usually I am the one mocking anti-vaxxers but there is a huge level of misunderstanding about this vaccine.

The 90% figure is about it's ability in disease modification, not immunity. It stops people getting ill, not from getting and passing on the virus.

It's very uncertain what (if any) immunity will be conferred. Best guess is probably between 3 months and 2 years of antibody response for most people.

Only about 30% of the population will get the vaccine because the remainder will get little benefit from it to justify the cost. So there will be no herd immunity from the vaccine.

Yes, as far as I know this is the case. The vaccine stops you from getting ill but they don't yet know if it stops you from spreading the virus. So saying "I don't want to mix with unvaccinated people" is a bit pointless at this stage.

Also I really don't understand why those who are at the lowest risk of becoming seriously ill even need to have the vaccine? Surely it should only be given to those who are most at risk from the virus and those who work in healthcare. Giving it to around 30% of the population makes far more sense to me. Why shell out on unnecessary vaccines when we are heading for a huge economic crisis

@MynephewR for herd immunity....like all other vaccines

Yes, as far as I know this is the case. The vaccine stops you from getting ill but they don't yet know if it stops you from spreading the virus. So saying "I don't want to mix with unvaccinated people" is a bit pointless at this stage.

Also I really don't understand why those who are at the lowest risk of becoming seriously ill even need to have the vaccine? Surely it should only be given to those who are most at risk from the virus and those who work in healthcare. Giving it to around 30% of the population makes far more sense to me. Why shell out on unnecessary vaccines when we are heading for a huge economic crisis

I like this response....very sensible...

@MynephewR
I think that it's been stated that at least 80% of the population need to have the vaccine to have any real impact on the situation.