AIBU to ask how "coloured" and "of colour" differ?

[JohnAndMichaelsSister]

I've hesitated all day before posting this, because it's a sensitive subject and I don't want to offend anyone. But I need to know the answer, so as not to unintentionally offend anyone in future!

I turned on the radio this morning (Today on Radio 4) to hear that the FA chairman Greg Clarke has had to resign for using the term “coloured footballers”. Then Dame Heather Rabbatts, in talking about it, used the phrase “person of colour”.

How can “coloured” be offensive and “of colour” not be?

To me, logically, both seem offensive. Both imply that to be white is “the norm”, and lump together everyone else in the world who is of any other colour as somehow departing from this “norm”.

And any physicist will tell you that white is formed by combining all the colours of the spectrum, while black is an absence of colour. So actually it's white people who are coloured!

Yet for a while now we have been told that “... of colour” is the correct term for everyone who isn't white.

I'm in the UK, but I know that in the US the main organisation that campaigns for the rights of black people is called The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.

So I'm totally confused. I'd like some guidance (especially from black British people - I'm white) on what is offensive and what isn't.

YANBU = “coloured” and “of colour” are as offensive or inoffensive as each other.
YABU = there really is some difference between the two terms.

DD came home from gymnastics a couple of weeks ago desperate to tell me her friend had won a competition. When I asked which friend she said the one with long hair, pink coat, tall mum... she tied herself in knots as I didn't know who she meant. She finally admitted she wanted to say she's black but didn't know if that's allowed or offensive. I said it was fine to say that but now I'm not sure if that's right or not.

@DickBastardly

I don’t like coloured because people who use it seem to use it in a very nasty way. I also don’t like “person/people of colour” because I think it sounds patronising and I hate BAME with a passion for the ideology that all races that are non-white can be lumped together and spoken about as a shared experience, as if someone from Uganda has much in common and experience as someone from China.

In some contexts, POC can be 'lumped together'. We are together in our 'not being white' which is a valid distinction in some conversations. It is relevant in the sorts of conversations where BAME would be relevant. 'Not being white' is a distinction and only a blind racist would not acknowledge this. On an individual basis, most people would generally prefer being acknowledged for what they are depending on the situation: black, Chinese, British etc. The only bit that is specifically complicated in my mind is the term 'Asian'. In the rest of the world, Asian is used to refer to East Asians (Korean,Chinese etc). In the U.K. it is used to refer to people from India and Pakistan. I think we are an outlier in doing this and it really would make sense to convert to the global use of the term. Telling an American or Australian or Canadian that you are 'Asian' if you have Indian ancestry is very confusing.

And when I say 'black,Chinese, British' I do not mean the black or Chinese person can not be British. I mean depending on the conversation, a person may refer to themselves as 'black' or as 'British' or as 'Londoner' or 'scouse'

Can anyone answer why it's allowed for some people of Asian heritage (as an example) to forbid their children to marry white people but if whites forbid their children to marry or date black /Asian people it would be very wrong? I'm curious as to why there's a difference in attitude.

@Savourysenorita

Can anyone answer why it's allowed for some people of Asian heritage (as an example) to forbid their children to marry white people but if whites forbid their children to marry or date black /Asian people it would be very wrong? I'm curious as to why there's a difference in attitude.

It’s not “allowed” to forbid anyone to date or marry the person of their choosing. Just because it happens more in some cultures does not make it right.

There was an example recently of a UK job advert for a UK organisation included a “Diversity Statement” mentioning inclusion of “Indigenous People”. Who were they thinking of? Picts???

Yy @MoleSmokes. I was trying to make ths point earlier about the new trendy BIPOC label (which includes 'indigenous). I really don't think anybody using that (with a straight face) knows what they are saying. It's ludicrous.

The sooner we stop picking out a way to describe people because of their skin colour the better. We don't do it with hair! Or clothes. I've never understood why we have to put people in such large groups to describe them, it's so general and really doesn't describe them at all, if that is so important.

From my conversations its still very much the case though. I just wonder why people from these backgrounds don't feel they have to tie themselves in knots trying not to offend white people? White women are often views as moralless and cheap easy and trashy by some men of different cultures. White people just don't appear to say anything about it. I'm just wondering why there appears to be a difference in attitude depending which way around it is? Both are equally as harmful

These posts confirm what I have long suspected, White supremacy will never die.
To all of you that opine about using the skin colors of minorities as descriptors, and how there are no other possible ways to describe people; I cry foul. If you are at a cocktail party in a sea of White faces I doubt you are describing someone as that “White man or White lady over there”.
Funny, innit? When it comes to yourselves you manage to find plenty of descriptors other than race, but when it comes to People of Color you jump right in and you and your children boil it all down to “that Black over there or the Blacks” cause that’s what they are right? How fun to be the Black on the playground with your kids. How about learning people’s names, or what they themselves use as their ethnicity not your White self deciding for them. How White of you to smugly make assumptions.
And for all the people saying they knew one Black person at some point in their history who said it was fine to refer to that specific individual as Black great. But Black people are not a monolith, some people like the term Black some don’t and if we hear you refer to us as the Blacks we low key tag you as a racist. Many people hate to be called the Blacks. We are people and individuals not the Blacks.
Being a minority is hard enough without the Whites (how does it feel?) constantly boiling your identity down to skin color. Something the Whites don’t understand because you get to be you, not a Black, or an Asian, or whatever you smugly feel we are.
There was an entire post on here from a mixed race woman detailing how she hates getting called Black because she’s mixed race. But I guess the comfort of the Whites to label anything and everyone for their own convenience tops her very real discomfort.
Also, some of us do like the term People of Color, it is indicative of the connection we have to each other regardless of ethnicity as non-White members of society. It denotes our common experience of being othered, of experiencing racism, of many things the Whites wouldn’t understand. It is the common thread that binds us.
And yes, you can live your entire life without having to use race as your descriptor for describing someone, try clothes, or behavior, or place where you have seen them or know them from. Eg, “The lady in the grey suit,” “The boy from my class who tells funny jokes” etc. Let people of all races be individuals, because I guarantee if the tables were turned and you were constantly boiled down to being the Whites you would grow weary of it quite quickly. Signed. A Black.

Sorry that was for @CheetasOnFajitas

@MelCMel

These posts confirm what I have long suspected, White supremacy will never die. To all of you that opine about using the skin colors of minorities as descriptors, and how there are no other possible ways to describe people; I cry foul. If you are at a cocktail party in a sea of White faces I doubt you are describing someone as that “White man or White lady over there”. Funny, innit? When it comes to yourselves you manage to find plenty of descriptors other than race, but when it comes to People of Color you jump right in and you and your children boil it all down to “that Black over there or the Blacks” cause that’s what they are right? How fun to be the Black on the playground with your kids. How about learning people’s names, or what they themselves use as their ethnicity not your White self deciding for them. How White of you to smugly make assumptions. And for all the people saying they knew one Black person at some point in their history who said it was fine to refer to that specific individual as Black great. But Black people are not a monolith, some people like the term Black some don’t and if we hear you refer to us as the Blacks we low key tag you as a racist. Many people hate to be called the Blacks. We are people and individuals not the Blacks. Being a minority is hard enough without the Whites (how does it feel?) constantly boiling your identity down to skin color. Something the Whites don’t understand because you get to be you, not a Black, or an Asian, or whatever you smugly feel we are. There was an entire post on here from a mixed race woman detailing how she hates getting called Black because she’s mixed race. But I guess the comfort of the Whites to label anything and everyone for their own convenience tops her very real discomfort. Also, some of us do like the term People of Color, it is indicative of the connection we have to each other regardless of ethnicity as non-White members of society. It denotes our common experience of being othered, of experiencing racism, of many things the Whites wouldn’t understand. It is the common thread that binds us. And yes, you can live your entire life without having to use race as your descriptor for describing someone, try clothes, or behavior, or place where you have seen them or know them from. Eg, “The lady in the grey suit,” “The boy from my class who tells funny jokes” etc. Let people of all races be individuals, because I guarantee if the tables were turned and you were constantly boiled down to being the Whites you would grow weary of it quite quickly. Signed. A Black.

But do you think in a majority Asian country for example that a white person would be referred to as 'the white lady?' I think perhaps they would. If a white blonde woman goes to Egypt for example they are often picked out for the colour of their skin because its so different. Also as a person of colour - could you tell me if your family would have any objections to you marrying a white person?

On an individual basis, most people would generally prefer being acknowledged for what they are depending on the situation: black, Chinese, British etc. The only bit that is specifically complicated in my mind is the term 'Asian'. In the rest of the world, Asian is used to refer to East Asians (Korean,Chinese etc). In the U.K. it is used to refer to people from India and Pakistan. I think we are an outlier in doing this and it really would make sense to convert to the global use of the term. Telling an American or Australian or Canadian that you are 'Asian' if you have Indian ancestry is very confusing.

But what makes the rest of the world right and us wrong? are Indians not from Asia? If we want to be 100% correct then both sides need to acknowledge that whether Chinese or Pakistani or Indian etc all are from the ‘Asia’ continent and should be referred to as such. In the meantime, the U.K. is no more wrong than the rest of the world.

I call them Black, I am white.

@MelCMel do you think there's a culture of white people being terrified to use the correct terminology and being mortified to offend? Do you feel this is sometimes picked up on and exploited? Do you consider it racist if someone describes someone as 'black' even if they are not using it in a derogatory way?

@Savourysenorita Do you believe that everyone from a non-white background, would have a problem introducing their white partner to the rest of the family?

I think it's a power game.
The 'correct' terms are always changing. In my lifetime black, coloured, of colour, and now BAME, have been the right and then the utterly wrong way of referring to people.
I don't deny there are racists around, but there are also people who respond to other's attempts to do the right thing in bad faith, assuming there is racism because they don't use the word of the day.
Of course most people don't want to offend, but to expect them to constantly police their language and use the (arbitrary chosen) right words is arrogant.

If you are at a cocktail party in a sea of White faces I doubt you are describing someone as that “White man or White lady over there”.

Well, of course not, because “white” would not be a way of distinguishing the person I wanted to point out from the others in the room.

However if the party was a sea of black faces with one white person, of course I would say “that white person over there”.

If the room was a more balanced mix of black and white I might say “the white lady in the red dress” or “the black man in the green jumper”.

I see it as a scale:

BAME - correct
Person of Colour - OK I guess
Black - hmmm
Brown/Yellow - best not
Coloured - No!
The N Word - definitely not under any circumstances other than if you're acting in a reputable movie about slavery or something

At first I detested "BAME" because it was new, but the more I use it, the more comfortable I am with it. Basically I didn't like being told I was no longer black, which had been the correct term before, but BAME.

The thing is, we need a catch-all for "non-White" and it can't be "non-White" because that implies white is normal and everything else isn't. BAME seems as good as anything else that's been put forward so far.

People argue "person of colour" is wrong because all people have skin of one colour or another. But then nobody has literally black skin. Nobody has literally white skin. So both those terms are wrong too.

Personally I think we should just use the terms we are comfortable with to label ourselves and others. If you want to call me a POC or a BAME, fine.

I thought BAME was a bad thing now?

If you are at a cocktail party in a sea of White faces I doubt you are describing someone as that “White man or White lady over there”.
Funny, innit? When it comes to yourselves you manage to find plenty of descriptors other than race, but when it comes to People of Color you jump right in and you and your children boil it all down to “that Black over there.

Thats not racist though (and I doubt, BTW, that anybody I've ever met in my life would phrase it the way you did) . Its all to do with efficiency of communications and hierarchy of difference. We'll all note the distinctive thing about the person we are trying to point out. Like if somebody had a purple mohawk, you'd point that out. It would be weird not to.

Similarly if you are in a room of white people and you are pointing a black person out, you'd use that descriptor because that immediately narrows the field of vision.

That's what it is about.

TRouble is with coloured or person of colour is we all have a colour. It is a useless phrase. I don,t think the latter is really better then the former.

@MelCMel I find some aspects of your post quite offensive and I'm not going to try to be pc about it. You have no problem generalising all white people and their thoughts and labelling 'all your kids' children are innocent human beings and I don't think 5 year old kids refer to black children as 'blacks' that's outrageous. Have you not seen how most white posters have been so careful and are so worried about using offensive terms? I don't get why you're being so hateful

[quote Giningit]@Savourysenorita Do you believe that everyone from a non-white background, would have a problem introducing their white partner to the rest of the family?[/quote]
Do you believe everyone from a white background is racist towards black people?

Yes, I think that everyone on this thread who has said they would say “Black” is very very clear on the difference between “Black” as a noun and “Black” as an adjective.

“That black” vs “that black man.” “Blacks vs “Black people”. I am sorry if you have been described in that way @MelCMel but it is generally understood to be offensive.

I remember with horror hearing a white Zimbabwean fellow student talking about “the blecks” who worked in his father’s diamond mine. I don’t recall him saying anything derogatory about them but the descriptor itself was shocking enough. That was 20 years ago.

@CheetasOnFajitas

I am not sure about this. A person who has for,, example paraplegia, is a person with paraplegia not a person with a disability. They aren't disabled because of their condition, but because the world is not designed in a way that takes into account their needs. Therefore they are a disabled person, because barriers (building design, lack of accessible transport etc) disable them.

What a load of bollocks. My brother is paraplegic. Even when he is gliding around in his wheelchair in his fully adapted kitchen with every mod con within arm’s reach from a sitting position he would still consider himself disabled because, you know, he can’t fucking walk. Or feel his own bladder.

@CheetasOnFajitas

Please read my post again.

I didn't say that a disabled person is not disabled and would not consider themselves disabled. I said that some disabled people do not like to be called a person with a disability, but prefer to be called a disabled person because of the reasons I outlined above. It is the social model of disability that some disabled people ascribe to.

My DH is one of those people. He also, you know, can't fucking walk, which is why I am his full time carer.

There was no reason to be so rude to me.