To just want a full nights sleep?

[TheUnwindingCableCar]

Our daughter turns 4 later this month and she has only ever slept through the night once (maybe twice) since she was born

Does anyone have any tips?

She has her own room with a bed she chose with a tent over it and all her teddies and comforts.

She has a night lights left on.

She just won't stay asleep for longer than 3-4 hours without waking. And that's if we're lucky. Often she wakes every hour until 2am

If we let her sleep in our bed or on a put up bed in our room she will sleep slightly better but not much and she can't sleep in our bed permanently because it's giving me really bad backache sharing with a starfishing 4 year old.

I thought starting nursery would help tire her out but it hasn't made any difference. Neither does trying to tire her out on walks or letting her go to bed later.

I just want to sleep

I’d definitely get her checked out by a GP.

Only because I know someone whose child has a condition that means they never go into deep sleep. They keep waking throughout the night. 12 times a night at that age. Their dad also has it so it was picked up early. I don’t know what the treatment is but given the frequency of her wake ups I thought I’d mention it.

@Indecisivelurcher op mentioned that her dd slept slightly better if she was in their bed

Interesting thread (sorry op). I’m marking this for future use. My DS is only 8 months old but I can totally see us in this situation down the line!

@TheUnwindingCableCar I'd be tempted to do the coin thing the other way around. Rather than removing a coin, use positive reinforcement and give her a coin for every time she stays in bed.
Get her a clear jar so she can see them collecting, let her get them out and count them and get excited about earning them.

Has she stayed in bed so far OP? I like the suggestion that you and her dad alternate nights of dealing with it, so at least you get some proper sleep every other night.

Have you tried the Moshi sleep app? Our two year old is very similar but falls to sleep quickly at bedtime because of this.

I think it's really hard for people to understand what it's like unless you have a child that doesn't sleep - a lot of the common sense advice doesn't work, because if it did, the child probably wouldn't be such a bad sleeper in the first place. If it was in their nature to care about these things and sleep.

We had success with the grow clock for about a month. But it seems to have worn off now.

Have you considered changing her duvets etc? A bigger high quality duvet was a help too.

We did have it do there was just one wake up around 4am where she trotted in to our bed, but a regression is seeing her wake up at 1.30 and again around 5am. I'm planning to move onto the sofa for two weeks and leaving her dad (who mostly sleeps through her shenanigans) to deal to break the pattern.

Just to say OP, there are two things going on here.
There's her behaviour (repeatedly waking up and getting up throughout the night) and the underlying reasons for her behaviour (? not necessarily obvious)
A lot of the behaviourist approaches suggested here focus on trying to change her behaviour without attempting to understand the underlying causes of it. That can mean that the strategies you use are unsuccessful because you need to address the underlying reasons in order to change the behaviour. OR it may mean that her behaviour changes but the underlying reasons may not be resolved and may then manifest in some other ways.
There might not be anything deeper going on e.g. it could just be a habit that she has become used to, and so trying rewards or bribery etc will actually work because it will help her get into a new habit and then she will have got used to the new pattern.
But if the reason she's waking up is that she's scared/anxious/having night terrors or whatever, then forcing her to stay in her own bed and not disturb you might then lead to her anxieties manifesting in other areas of her behaviour or in relation to food/other things and then you've just replaced one problem with another. So be careful with what strategy you adopt, and do your best to find out why she's doing this.

She went down at 7 and fell asleep by herself by 8 after asking me a million questions and getting me to leave the bathroom light on.

She then woke at 9:30 and 10 but both times let out a little cry and went back to sleep. Like, a 5 second whimper. So I didn't need to go in to see her.

She did just wake at 12:30 and tried every trick in the book to get into our bed but I stuck with it and by the sounds of things she's fallen back to sleep.

She said it was dark but she has a night light, fairy lights and the bathroom light on so that didn't work. Then needed a wee so I took her for a wee and put her back to bed. Then needed a drink. So gave her a drink. Then she cried for about 10 minutes and woke her brother up I went in to see her, gave her a cuddle and then said goodnight and left. She then complained her nose was blocked and her eyes were sore (from the crying) so I told her if she stopped crying and went to sleep they would get better. She said ok and then it's been quiet since.

Time for me to go back to sleep and see if we can get a good stretch of sleep in.

Fingers crossed.

Good luck. My 4 1/2 year old has never slept. He falls asleep by himself well, and quickly (we reassure him by being on the same floor) and through the night falls back asleep quickly if we put him in his room, but is such a light sleeper he wakes up frequently. If someone is near him (preferably next to him) he goes straight back to sleep. If no one is near him, he wanders around til he finds someone.

No amount of bribery/star charts works in the middle of the night. He will scream for hours (and I’m not proud I know that) if left to get on with it. He does not have symptoms of apnoea. If he is disturbed in his sleep after 5.30 or so, he will not get back to sleep, whatever. Yes, we have a gro clock.

Mostly he crawls in with us, and we don’t notice as we’re so tired. I cry about it, sometimes (I also have a younger child), wondering if I’ll ever get a block of sleep more then three hours again.

We've made a discovery recently that may help. DD 13 has always struggled to sleep and often wakes in the night still. DS 10 used to be an amazing sleeper but an early riser (5.30!), recently he's been waking in the night as well. So both children have been exhausted. A friend suggested a weighted blanket. I have tried one on both children with huge success. Both have slept through using it! I really recommend you try one. The weight feels like a cuddle and reduces movement in your sleep, helping you sleep better. They can be expensive but ours was about £20 on Amazon and is really good. I'll try an post a link if you're interested.

Not sure a weighted blanket is such a good idea for a 4 year old unsupervised, I don't know if I want to try that but thanks for the suggestion.

Well she woke again at 4 and I went through because she was shouting me but she wasn't crying! I told her she was doing a great job and reminded her that I said she could get the glitter out today if she slept in there all night and then she went back to sleep again by herself!

Woke up at 6:30 and asked to come into our bed "since it's morning" and so I went and got her and she had a cuddle in our bed.

Fingers crossed this works. That was already a lot less wakings and after a bit hopefully they will become less and less as she feels more relaxed in her own bed.

That sounds a great improvement! Keep at it.

I also agree with the coin thing the other way round- so she knows when she has X no of pennies she can go and buy something. TheUnwindingCableCar I'd be tempted to do the coin thing the other way around. Rather than removing a coin, use positive reinforcement and give her a coin for every time she stays in bed.
Get her a clear jar so she can see them collecting, let her get them out and count them and get excited about earning them.

I feel for you as even your improved night would have driven me crazy. I’d treat the going to bed as a separate issue to the night waking and you might need different approaches to different sort of wakings. E.g did she actually need a wee or was she messing around? My 4 year old can sometimes get into habits of night wakings abs there is a big difference in our approach depending on why.

Earlier in the week she woke us up at 2am to tell us her toe was pink. I gave her no attention before sending her right back to bed and then spoke to her in the morning about it. In contrast, she’ll sometimes have nightmares and she does need kindness and support as she’s genuinely scared. She did start to milk that a bit and pretend but I can tell the difference.

You mentioned the possibility of night terrors. Mine has had both night terrors and nightmares and there is quite a big difference. With the terrors there is something other worldly about them. She isn’t really all there, hasn’t got a clue who we are, doesn’t have a clue they’re happening. They are linked to sleep walking. That doesn’t mean nightmares aren’t a problem but night terrors are different.

This person changed our life when it came to sleep routines etc:

Rachel Fitz-Desorgher.

She has a community on Facebook with lots of information and regular fb live clinics. Worth a try?

We were having so many problems with our eldest's sleeping and after a 121 session with Rachel, we put in place what she told us and they were putting themselves to sleep and sleeping through within a week. We've also used the same techniques with our youngest and it's working there, too.

You have my sympathies OP. I have a dc who didn’t sleep regularly through the night until he turned 10 and only reliably since they became a teen. If dc is anxious about anything they still have problems sleeping. Our other dc have never had any issues.

We tried everything - it’s easy for people whose dc don’t have problems to suggest things although you might be lucky and one if these strategies works- of course it’s worth trying. In the end I had to stop talking about it because of all the judgements! I had to accept that was how it was- but it’s been terrible and I’m not sure how to return my sleep pattern to normal.

We were lucky there was room for a double bed in the room so we could co sleep. Story cds and more recently podcasts help with returning to sleep. We have been prescribed various drugs which helped to a greater or lesser degree. I agree get diet looked dc was deficient in magnesium and zinc and supplements helped a bit.
Dc was later diagnosed with a number of issues including sensory processing issues and I think that explains the route cause.

I really hope you find something that works for you all.

I would have the put up bed in my room for now and bring her into that . Then if she wakes again, id out out my hand and use my voice to calm her.
She may eventually just come to the put up bed of her own accord when she wakes without waking you. Surely the best answer is one that comforts her if she wakes with bad dreams but that maximises your sleep. The put up bed seems the best solution to me . I'd stick with making her go to sleep at the beginning of the evening in her own bed though

I second a cranial Oesto - children’s necks go through all sorts in the womb and during Labour and they can find sleeping uncomfortable.
My son also did not sleep the through the night until he was 4.5 years old. I spent thousands on sleep consultants. Read a zillion books.
You might want to look at her diet and activity during the day. Is she still having milk at night? Maybe that’s too much sugar for her if she is. She might also have a food allergy that’s affecting her.
In regards to sleep consultants, having paid someone £1,500 to stay up with him for three nights to work out the problem (useless) I found spending about £30 for a 15min phone consultation with a sleep nurse the most helpful although unfort I can’t remember their name.
I initially used a kinder controlled crying (1min in the room, 1 min out - increasing to 2mins the next night or something) which helped get him to sleep - but I couldn’t solve the wakings. I ended up putting a double bed in his nursing and pulled him into bed with me when he woke up. Then I realised my sleep would be less disrupted if I put a bed support up on his side and he just went to bed in this bed and I joined him later. I took about a year and at some point during that time his twin sister realised she was missing out so it ended up being three in the bed. By which time my husband started to complain that maybe I should come back to our bed and our twins shared a double bed until they were 8. When my son finally had his own room and bed he would wake between 5-6am and come into our bed and go back to sleep until 7am. He only stopped doing this at 13! I think some kids just like company while sleeping like adults do. That said he is now the best sleeper in the house and goes to bed the earliest and sleeps the soundest.
One thing I would say was his poor sleep has affected my sleep pattern and had a knock on effect on my health. Please look after yourself and when you get her sorted consider something like melatonin to reset your body clock.

My DD is almost 5 the gro clock worked for us - now if she wakes up and it's still blue she waits til it turns yellow at 6am or goes back to sleep - she always used to he in our room in the early hours but is much better now!! Xx

Just thought I'd update.

She's now going down on an evening by herself. I have to stay upstairs but I'm not sat on her bedroom floor so I'll take that! I can sit in my own room and get work done or just whatever and she falls asleep relatively quickly. Maximum 30 mins.

The waking in the night is getting less! Last night she was in bed for 7:25 and fell asleep by 7:45. Then woke at 12:15 but went straight back to sleep after I popped in and gave her a kiss. Then woke at 5 and I managed to get her to go sleep again until 6:30.

So some good stretches there! I don't mind going in to comfort her when it's just a quick kiss and say good night and she now just says goodnight back and goes to sleep.

No crying or screaming. Much more relaxed.

As I said, our bedroom is tiny, we can't have a spare bed in there all the time, there's no room and we have to climb over things to get into bed when it's up.

Also, I know the penny thing should probably be a reward rather than a punishment so we're doing it backwards but it's the only way it works with both kids. They don't care about rewards, at all. But they do care about losing a penny.