To think the vaccine shouldn't be given out by age criteria?

[studychick81]

I know the data says that the majority of people who get the virus and are most seriously ill or die are the elderly, over 82. But I was quite surprised by the potential order of giving out the vaccine.

1. people in care homes and care home workers- fair enough.

2. over 80s and health care workers.

3. age order oldest- youngest.

4. I don't agree with this. Surely all health care workers should get it before all people over 80? Shouldn't those 50 plus who have underlining issues which means catching it could be deadly get it over a normally healthy over 80 year old?

5. should kids who live with vulnerable adults/grand parents get it before a fit and healthy 40 year old?

6. should teachers, education workers get it before a fit 40 year old?

@BungleandGeorge

It will probably be a condition for care workers to continue to work, so you may be choosing unemployment.

No it won’t and carers are very much in short supply as it is. No vaccine is mandatory for carers or HCP because it would go against basic human rights legislation. What you choose to do morally is another thing

I may be wrong (I'm not a HCP) but don't nurses, doctors etc need to have vaccines to be able to work? Without they are unable to work as it is criteria of the occupation?

I have only one comment to make:

Thank goodness Mumsnetters won’t be compiling the priority list.

I think the rollout should be based on two overarching aims.

1. Take pressure off the health service (which is why the older population are top of the list).

2. Minimise spread in the community (which would prioritise anyone who works in high density environments like schools/factories/prisons/unis).

I don't think the effect of Covid on young people and adults with learning disabilities and complex needs has entered the heads of the majority of posters on here, the fact that care homes are not just for those at the end of life, the incredibly poor health outcomes for people with LDs and complex needs...just doesn't even factor. As is often the case these people (And their carers) are forgotten.

Not all people with learning disabilities have complex health needs. And if they are younger they will be prioritised in order of risk / health conditions just like anyone else.

I thought high risk was group 5 and moderate risk group 6, which includes diabetics. This seems okay - after the very elderly but before the general population.

I'm a secondary school teacher and also think teachers should be somewhere on the list. We come into close contact with hundreds of teenagers a day. In practice, in many schools social distancing is impossible. I can only speak anecdotally here, but a lot of my colleagues have had Covid, mostly with mild symptoms, but three were extremely ill back in March and one ended up in Intensive Care. We are more likely to contract the disease than, say, all the people who are able to work from home. I'm not saying we're the only profession at greater risk, obviously.

I may be wrong (I'm not a HCP) but don't nurses, doctors etc need to have vaccines to be able to work? Without they are unable to work as it is criteria of the occupation?

Nope, because that would discriminate against people who can’t have the vaccine for whatever reason, eg allergy, immunosuppression.

But it might limit where you can work, ie not in sectors with vulnerable patients, or high risk of exposure to the disease.

Not all people with learning disabilities have complex health needs.

I didn't say complex health needs - I said Learning Disabilities and Complex Needs.

Hi I did put some people!! Of course I care deeply about people at their end of life and obviously did for my Grandmother! I am not talking about people aged 25!
I know its a decision for family to make sometimes, BUT its not if you do not have power of attorny. I know this from my Grandmothers case, as the hospital pushed for cancer investigations and we could not stop them. Thankfully the GP did though! As the investigations would of been cruel and unnecessary. (She would never of got through surgery/ chemo). It turned out she didn't have cancer either!

I just feel that a younger person with CV would be more appropriate while there is limited vaccine. Thats all. I am not vile or nasty

@Changechangychange

That makes sense, thanks!

didn't say complex health needs - I said Learning Disabilities and Complex Needs

Super. So those who have complex health needs will be prioritised just like anyone else. Those who have complex needs that are not health related aren't necessarily at any more risk than anyone else in the population. So we wouldn't have a blanket roll out of prioritising those groups first. It would be on a case by case basis dependent on the circumstances.

I absolutely agree with care home residents, care workers, health care workers etc being priorities for the vaccine and the elderly and clinically vulnerable for that matter.
If we are going to prioritise teachers though my vote is for teachers and support staff who work in special education to be at the front of that particular queue. I have a child who attends a special school, for so many families their only respite is when their child is at school, children also miss out on not only education but also therapy/salt/routine that is really vital. Some of the children are also medically fragile and while not as at risk as an CV older person are still much more at risk of becoming very ill with covid than other children. Plus I respect and admire his teachers/aides, they are bloody brilliant!

My DS aide calls me every day when DS is in hospital to see how he's doing.

Miss out on therapy if their school has to close due to covid that is.

@BackInSeptember

I have only one comment to make:

Thank goodness Mumsnetters won’t be compiling the priority list.

Thank God. Brexiteers and Tory voters wouldn't be allowed the vaccine for a start.

tbh, i really think the list needs looking at.

I'm 39 with asthma, a single mom, and a carer for one of my kids who is disabled.

On the current scheme, i'd be one of the last to get it, while healthy 60yo's, with no dependants get priority.

Those of us who're registered carers AND/OR have an illness that makes us clinically vulnerable ought to get priority over healthy people in a higher age bracket!

Absolutely Ethelfleda.

A vaccination programme will be designed to stop the spread. It’s not about the individual, or perceived risk for certain groups, it’s about how to bring down numbers so that hospitals are not overwhelmed and that people can once again go about living their lives.

Care home transmission of any disease or bug is rampant because of care workers moving between multiple residents carrying out personal care and, of course, the infirmity and age of the people there. And an infected person does not just die speedily in the home, they will be taken to hospital where they might occupy a bed for weeks if not months, infecting the staff there and so it goes on.

But @Calabasa those health sixty-year-olds could have very elderly parents they're caring for.

It starts getting way too complicated and expensive (and time consuming) to start considering individual cases.

Thank goodness a lot of people here don’t work in public health. Me, me, me, me, meeeeee first !!!!!!!!!!!

@IrmaFayLear

Thank goodness a lot of people here don’t work in public health. Me, me, me, me, meeeeee first !!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed. Bloody depressing, isn’t it?

My covid age is 71 worked out by this:

alama.org.uk/covid-19-medical-risk-assessment/

Even with my complex combination of risk factors and being in my 50's I'm still only 71 in covid risk years.

This is why the older members of our society need this vaccine first.

We will get it, and once the 65+ age group is done it will be us. The older you are the more severe it is, even co morbidities in slightly younger isn't as much risk as age.

Our clinics are superbly set up for flu vaccine administration every year. It's like a fine tuned machine, so it will be a few months to get everyone in and through.

I'm highly vulnerable and I know they will do this well. The only point at which the NHS fails is poor funding from government. In this case it's in the government interests to get this funded and fast.

@IrmaFayLear

Thank goodness a lot of people here don’t work in public health. Me, me, me, me, meeeeee first !!!!!!!!!!!

I agree. We seem to have forgotten those harrowing pictures of exhausted doctors and nurses working on Covid wards. And around the country they're still doing it right now.

This thread is really very fucking unedifying. Perhaps if people leave off the I am considerably more worthier than yeeew" it could be a better discussion.

One thing that might (and I hope does) come out of this discussion is the need for people to actively consider and make decisions about their long term future health wise.

I am in the clinically extremely vulnerable group and when I got my shielding letter it advised me to draw up an Advance Care Plan. Obviously this made me feel shit at the time but with a sensible head on I saw it should be done and it gave me a lot to think about.

The irony is that I won't be one of those 80 year olds in a care home, but I can assure people that if I was, I would not want to be in the vaccine queue/priority list before my children and grandchildren. And yes it's "easy to say that" etc, as I am in the CEV group and "above" my DC, some of whom are adults. There is no way on earth however I would want to prioritise myself having the vaccine before my children, who have their own lives in front of them to live.

I am sure the vast majority of elderly people would feel the same way, but I realise I cannot say that for them, which is why people need Advance Care Plans, so their wishes can be heard and carried out.

Its ridiculous to suggest teachers.

Imo it should be health care workers/care homes and the clinically vulnerable.

Then registered carers who are far more important than teachers and who others depend on to survive.

Then descending age.

@Caroncanta

didn't say complex health needs - I said Learning Disabilities and Complex Needs

Super. So those who have complex health needs will be prioritised just like anyone else. Those who have complex needs that are not health related aren't necessarily at any more risk than anyone else in the population. So we wouldn't have a blanket roll out of prioritising those groups first. It would be on a case by case basis dependent on the circumstances.

Those who have complex needs that are not health related aren't necessarily at any more risk than anyone else in the population.

No, this has been proved to be wrong.
In general people with LDs have poorer health outcomes and The Confidential Inquiry into prematuredeathsof people with alearning disabilityalso found that38% of people with alearning disabilitydied from anavoidablecause, compared to 9% in a comparison population of people without alearning disability (hence the Treat Me Well Campaign)

The CQC discovered that between April and May the "Coronavirus pandemic saw a 134% increase in deaths of people with learning disabilities"
Harry Roche, Ambassador at Mencap said:
“I feel very shocked by the news that there has been a 134% increase in the number of deaths of people with a learning disability, and I am worried that people with a learning disability are being forgotten in this crisis. We talk about COVID-19 all the time and the threat we are facing but no one is considering people with a learning disability, or people with a disability more generally, who are vulnerable.
“People with a learning disability already face problems getting equal access to healthcare, something Mencap has been aiming to change through our Treat Me Well campaign, and we cannot let this crisis make that even worse."

My response was to Samcro's point that it is not just the elderly and those at the emd of life in care homes who are affected by this - I was pointing out that many younger people with Learning Disabilities and Complex Needs (not necessarily health needs - but autism, challenging behaviour, mental health needs) are also in care homes, unable to see family and more vulnerable to Covid.

Those with LDs and Complex Needs, in the community are also vulnerable due to poor health messaging, communication difficulties and all the many reasons that make people more vulnerable in healthcare when they have LDs.

This is why there has been an extensive campaign for specialist Learning Disability nurses in all hospitals, a Hospital Passport Scheme and a push for more awareness of these matters in healthcare.

am sure the vast majority of elderly people would feel the same way

I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t because their risk of dying if they contract Covid is much higher. You’d be right if the risk was the same but it isn’t. I’d be horrified if someone in their 20s thought they should be ahead of 80 year olds in the queue.