Left v Right

[BullBailey]

What is going on? Why has it become so extreme and divisive? We seem to have lost our middle ground, it’s either extreme one way or another, you’re too ‘woke’ or too ‘gammon’ or whatever else people are calling each other these days.

The majority of people seem to be leaning slightly more anti-left (note, not right). I say this because I’ve noticed that ‘socialist’ seems to be something which really turns people off. Trump called Biden a socialist and it boosted support for himself. There was a lot of dislike for Corbyn due to him being a socialist. During the last election I was surprised that people who I would very much not have expected to vote for Boris did vote Tory because of the fact that ‘Corbyn is a socialist’ (dirty word apparently!)

I consider myself a bit of a socialist to be honest. To me, modern day socialism is not caring that someone is rich, but not wanting anyone to be in poverty. I couldn’t care less about how much cash Jeff Bezos has and whether that’s right or wrong nor am I demanding that footballers are paid any less, not my business. But I don’t think anyone should be left without a roof over their heads or not knowing where their next meal comes from, and if that means that billionaires and millionaires pay more tax then so be it (or any tax at all Starbucks). And I know people say ‘well they will just move abroad’ then fine, individuals can, but big businesses should have to pay their fair share to trade here and if they don’t, they don’t get to trade.

Despite myself being left, I think I’m only a teeny bit left. I am not extreme at all, but I feel like that’s not really an accepted position today.

Where do you feel you sit? Why do you think it’s getting more extreme? Am I being unreasonable to feel that the majority of people aren’t right, but are put off more by left wing politics? Why can’t we sit more to the middle?

I sit in the middle so I get called fucking Tory while also being called a snowlake leftie😁

There are policies on both sides I agree with, and policies I strongly disagree with. I wish there was a properly balanced middle party with strong leader. There are ideas on boths sides, capitalism and socialisms, I agree and disagree with.

I am just kind of glad I don't vote (in general elections, do my duty in local but there I go by their local agenda rather than a party) because I wouldn't know who to vote at this point! And I don't like "the lesser evil" vote.

What I find disappointing is that so many people don't seem willing to accept that people just have a different opinion to them.

There is so much vitriol directed at the opposing view ('uncaring', 'stupid', 'selfish'), rather than accepting that people can weigh up situations differently from each other and come down on different sides.

There seems to be a lot of ignorance about what being left wing actually means as far as I can tell, and so a lot of people assume anything left = full on Stalinist communism. Then the same bizarre comments about how 'it's always been a disaster', plus tosh about 'hand outs', 'hard work' and a lot of delusions of grandeur about how they are part of the monied elite, or might be soon, and we need a free market to make things fair - whilst maintaining no empathy or consideration for any inequalities or privilege etc etc. I find right wing people are often repressing trauma, usually from their upbringing. It's all very clichéd and depressing, especially the very basic lack of understanding of what left vs right or authoritarian vs libertarian actually means.

There are policies on both sides I agree with, and policies I strongly disagree with. I wish there was a properly balanced middle party with strong leader. There are ideas on boths sides, capitalism and socialisms, I agree and disagree with.

Oh God. I long for this.

One of the biggest disappointments of the last 25 years is that Blair turned out to be so rotten, because his "middle way" politics resonated so strongly with me.

I know I will be in a massive minority here, but I think one of the best governments we had in recent times was the coalition.

Middle of the road Tory policies, tempered by Lib Dem empathy/kindness. e.g. iirc It was the coalition that brought in Pupil Premium payments to schools.

I thought it was short sighted of Lib Dem voters to then turn against them because the Lib Dems hadn't been able to implement all their policies. The Lib Dems were the minority grouping, but at least they had the chance to get some of their policies through.

One of the biggest disappointments of the last 25 years is that Blair turned out to be so rotten, because his "middle way" politics resonated so strongly with me.

I heard that from people. I wasn't in the UK then so can't really judge

I thought it was short sighted of Lib Dem voters to then turn against them because the Lib Dems hadn't been able to implement all their policies. The Lib Dems were the minority grouping, but at least they had the chance to get some of their policies through

Agreed. What were they meant to do? It was a coalition which means compromise. I do think it’s tough for leaders. Cameron will always be remembered for Brexit and his behaviour over that, but he did good stuff too and I think he expected the Brexit vote to go the other way and then he could put it to be bed for good.
I also think that Brown could have been a good leader if he had had the chance. Since he left mainstream politics I have actually listened to him and he seems to be a decent bloke with a good head on his shoulders.

I agree about the middle ground politics. Just someone decent would be an attractive prospect. There are very few politicians who seem to just be decent people who you want to lead for you.

I mean, how are the two best choices in the US Trump and Biden? Is there no one else?!

The trouble with politics these days is that both sides are staunchly idealistic and neither are listening to each other. Being on 'the left' seems to leave no room for any 'self preservation', but being anywhere on the right makes you look like an arse who doesn't care for anyone but yourself and your lifestyle. There is no balance, and when it comes down to it more people will side with the politician that promises that they will keep the status quo in your favour.

I personally find being 'on the left' more and more difficult despite my person values being liberal. The fact that people seem to be ignorant of the fact that 'the far left' exists, and they're just as much of a problem (sociologically speaking) as the far right. Anyone further right than Corbyn is labelled 'Tory Light'. It's difficult to support this mentality, where nothing can be questioned unless you wanted to be tarred as prejudice or hateful. The lack of listening is pushing people further to the Right side of politics.

I mean, how are the two best choices in the US Trump and Biden? Is there no one else?!

Right?! It's mind boggling!

I also think that Brown could have been a good leader if he had had the chance. Since he left mainstream politics I have actually listened to him and he seems to be a decent bloke with a good head on his shoulders

I agree - but something that becomes more obvious to me as I age is how often this happens with (not quite all) politicians. Once they leave politics and are able to speak more freely and personally, I find they are not quite the devils they appeared to be. I might not agree with everything they do but I can see more where they are coming from.

I wish our media and polical system did not push/encourage politicians to behave in such unnatural ways. It makes it hard to really assess anyone's character and the result seems to be that good people are pulled down and the bad are elevated so that they all appear the same and it's hard to choose between them.

If you're so open minded why not speak to some people on the other side of the political divide? Because frankly, especially re your comments on Corbyn, it sounds like you're not only a "teeny bit" left at all.

To many people socialism invokes Venezuela, China, USSR. Mass poverty and authoritarian rule for the majority with the elite ruling class still rolling in gold palaces and limousines.

And most people weren't put off by Corbyn's "socialism" (which includes sending his own kids to private school and giving his multi-millionaire mate's daughter Laura Murray a cushy job in Labour HQ) but by his long association with terrorists, his anti-Semitism, his sexism and his inability to lead a party let alone a country.

I'm centre right. I find the left to be quite intolerant on the whole and as a believer in freedom of expression and choice, I'm more at home on the right.

@SebastianTheCrab well you’ve certainly made a lot of assumptions about me from a few sentences.

I didn’t vote for Corbyn. And most of family are conservative. I have regular conversations with people on both sides. I also stated TWO things about Corbyn; one that people disliked his socialism - this is true. And two that some people didn’t vote for him because of his socialist views - this is also true, quite a few people said it at the time.

Thanks for your judgement.

Well Seb's definitely not a lefty, and seems to have swallowed some right wing trash along the way!

Regardless of my personal beliefs (left) I actually
think right now a lot of the world needs staunch centrist politics that lean left or right in certain circumstances to create the best, most peaceful outcome.

I am baffled by the US though - I’ve never thought the democrats were particularly left? I thought it was more a case of centre or right?

@CaptainVanesHair 100% agree. We need to get on more balanced middle ground, but it seems like people only seem to be interested in extreme views, it’s what gets you noticed.

Another thing @SebastianTheCrab, I always find it very amusing when people bang on about all the deaths etc that have occurred under socialism/communism/etc. If we added up all the deaths that have occurred under and because of capitalism we would be here all day. You can not like left wing politics for sure, but all politics have led to poverty, death and disruption. And none of those leaders were good people. Nor was Castro before you chuck him in there for good measure.

I am left wing. There is intolerance on both sides, certainly, but I think what is a bigger driver of vitriol is social liberalism Vs conservatism. Often, people seem to think that people are divided so that the left wing fiscal policies and social liberalism go hand in hand while right wing fiscal policies and social conservatism go hand in hand.
And this is one thing I do think that the prominent right wing have understood much better than the prominent left.

• There are people in this country who would support many socialist policies and the power of trade unions but who, maybe because of a religious or cultural background, don't necessarily support gay marriage or transgenderism or feminism.

• There are people who support low taxes and deregulation of the financial system who couldn't give a rat's arse if two men get married or if a Muslim family move in next door. They are not contradictory beliefs.

And there are left wing people who aren't racist or homophobic or any sort of ism. And there are right wing people who are.

I am left wing, I am a lesbian so I directly benefit from there being liberal policies. Thanks to them, my girlfriend and I can get married, we can adopt children together, we are protected against discrimination. I am left wing and I am mostly liberal.

However, this depiction of the world as consisting of rich, white, straight, Christian men who adhere to traditionalism and right wing policies, in one corner. And, in the other corner, a mishmash of tolerant, socially progressive diverse people of every ethnicity and minority religion and sexuality and gender identity all supporting each other and and accepting of one another.
This is bullshit.

I am not saying that the labour party should adopt racist or exclusionist policies to appeal to voters- not at all. But it needs to recognise that the millions of people who vote for it believe in a wide variety of things, not all of it palatable, are not just a minor inconvenience to be brushed over.

From my perspective, the UK has been moving steadily right during my life; but it's a complicated picture.

Thatcher smashed the power of trade unions and moved the burden of taxation away from income tax and onto VAT and other regressive taxes that affect poorer people more.

But we as nation, including Blair, seem to have accepted that settlement - we won't vote for better worker rights etc.

I don't like it but it does seem to be how we are as a nation.
We seem to love following the Americans around.

I heard a fascinating podcast Hidden Brain about this. One episode was about how actually the difference is how much people actually care about politics. Another was about moralising politics. Obama had people working for him whom he disagreed with to avoid group think.

Its also worth bearing in mind that the political center is culturally relative. Im very central in danish politics, left of center in uk, and far left in usa.

Ive lost faith in debate as a means to challenge/change views. Stories work much better.

We've got to stop polarising and demonising people we disagree with. No one is 100% good or 100% bad.

Ive lost faith in debate as a means to challenge/change views. Stories work much better.

This interests me. what do you mean by stories please? Genuine question.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

I mean, how are the two best choices in the US Trump and Biden? Is there no one else?!

Right?! It's mind boggling!

It's amazing, isn't it? In the red corner there is the shaved orangutan; in the blue corner there is a man who appears to be going senile - imagine confusing your granddaughter with your deceased son and then not even getting her name right the second time around!

There are 330m people in the US, surely at least one of them must be better than these two!

I feel that it’s become so divisive due to both sides being scared of the other and what they believe the other side stands for ultimately.

My belief is that if the majority could just listen to both sides without prejudice they would find they share a lot of common ground, with many things that both believe to be correct not quite as they may seem. As for the beliefs that are factual, they may then hopefully see that they are not rooted in bad intentions for the most part but rather a belief that they are doing the ‘right’ thing.

The fact that many don’t seem to want to do so is what we should be questioning.

I agree with a lot of Labour policies and want a fairer society and less inequality. I am very worried by the hold the far right have on US and UK politics and commentators. But I also get completely turned off by the 'woke' left wing movement and this new cancel culture. There are some centre right Tory MPs hanging in there that I would be happy to support as PM but not many. I will still vote Labour though and hope Starmer brings back a moderation and stability to politics. It seems like we are governed by a bunch of clueless but dangerous idiots at the moment.

I sit in the middle so I get called fucking Tory while also being called a snowlake leftie😁

Yes me too! The more vicious and polarised it all gets, the more centrist I feel, though.