Left v Right

[BullBailey]

What is going on? Why has it become so extreme and divisive? We seem to have lost our middle ground, it’s either extreme one way or another, you’re too ‘woke’ or too ‘gammon’ or whatever else people are calling each other these days.

The majority of people seem to be leaning slightly more anti-left (note, not right). I say this because I’ve noticed that ‘socialist’ seems to be something which really turns people off. Trump called Biden a socialist and it boosted support for himself. There was a lot of dislike for Corbyn due to him being a socialist. During the last election I was surprised that people who I would very much not have expected to vote for Boris did vote Tory because of the fact that ‘Corbyn is a socialist’ (dirty word apparently!)

I consider myself a bit of a socialist to be honest. To me, modern day socialism is not caring that someone is rich, but not wanting anyone to be in poverty. I couldn’t care less about how much cash Jeff Bezos has and whether that’s right or wrong nor am I demanding that footballers are paid any less, not my business. But I don’t think anyone should be left without a roof over their heads or not knowing where their next meal comes from, and if that means that billionaires and millionaires pay more tax then so be it (or any tax at all Starbucks). And I know people say ‘well they will just move abroad’ then fine, individuals can, but big businesses should have to pay their fair share to trade here and if they don’t, they don’t get to trade.

Despite myself being left, I think I’m only a teeny bit left. I am not extreme at all, but I feel like that’s not really an accepted position today.

Where do you feel you sit? Why do you think it’s getting more extreme? Am I being unreasonable to feel that the majority of people aren’t right, but are put off more by left wing politics? Why can’t we sit more to the middle?

The right wing populists have spent many years determinedly undermining any measures or beliefs that suggest we could all be rather less grasping and consider other people a little more. They're being very successful. In today's populist terms, half the sacked Tories of last year (yes, you did that Bozo) are as bad as those who'd shoot the Royals whilst singing the Red Flag. In populist eyes, I have morphed from being a moderate lefty into a rabid Marxist, all without changing my mind or beliefs. Four more years of Trump and bloody Farage slithering round again. They might put me on an execution list, as Moseley did to my grandfather and uncles, what with me being so dangerously radical and all. News from USA today has depressed me thoroughly.

@NannyOggsWhiskyStash

The issue is we have had right wing parties in power for years and they have basically wrecked the UK. And created a hostile environment for anything left of centre. Scotland is more socialist and this is reflected by our satisfaction with how the SNP are being, this worldwide swing to the right is quite frankly terrifying

I find the complete opposite with the SNP, and those who I know who support the party, who create the hostile environment and seem to accept nothing more than blind allegiance to independence and any voicing of anything other than NS is amazing is met with absolute vitriol.

@pointythings

Fifthtimelucky speaking from the Dutch experience, letting the extremists have their day in Parliament (especially a diverse, coalition-based parliament) isn't a bad thing. In Holland this has happened several times, with the Centrum Partij (like the BNP), the PVV (Geert Wilders' mob) and now the Forum voor Democratie (Racism and Misogyny for Naice People). Without exception these parties, once in Parliament, have shown themselves up as corrupt and incompetent, prone to infighting and incapable of parliamentary discipline. They have all faded and lost their support as a result. I think it's better to have them out in the open, making fools of themselves.

We saw that in the UK with the BNP. Following several local council and European election victories, Nick Griffin was invited on BBC Question Time. As above, people used the "don't give them a mouthpiece" argument, there were protests outside the studios but the BBC went ahead. Griffin showed the entire nation who he was and promptly disappeared into obscurity.

If he had been "no-platformed" (the latest buzzword), he could have claimed censorship and whipped up his followers. Instead, sunlight proved to be the best disinfectant.

I find the complete opposite with the SNP, and those who I know who support the party, who create the hostile environment and seem to accept nothing more than blind allegiance to independence and any voicing of anything other than NS is amazing is met with absolute vitriol.
@TitianaTitsling I've noticed the same. I've never come across any followers of a mainstream party quite like some of the CyberNats. Some of them are just appalling. Threats, abuse, intimidation...

Ideologically I’m centre but definitely lean more to the left, but I’m really turned of by the woke side and I find it pushing me in the other direction even though I agree with the principles it’s promoting.

I feel quite shut down by certain aspects of the left, I feel that i’m being told i can’t have an opinion, because I’m privileged makes me feel like I have nothing to contribute and my voice feels lost if that makes sense?

I’d really like to see people listening to each other rather than preaching AT each other

The Labour Party is a socialist party. It literally says so on the membership card. We have a socialist health care system which almost everyone wants to keep.

So most people are in the middle on socialism. They want some socialist institutions but not others.

America has always had a huge issue with socialism, but we are not America. There was a big report out on political polarisation recently and it found that the U.K. wasn’t very polarised. It also showed that the majority of social media posts are made by a minority of people, and those people were much more polarised than the rest of the population.

OP you are not a socialist with the way you described, you are centrist, which is a good thing. The reason why socialism turns people off is because it never works, it’s a systematically way of killing people, and that’s not exaggeration. Socialism is further to the left of centre than Trump and Johnson are to the right of centre. Socialism is why Cuban immigrants in Florida choose to vote Trump, that tell us everything we need to know.
Socialism is extreme, and it’s sinister. Alt right is crazy at best, most people just laugh.

@TeenPlusTwenties

I know I will be in a massive minority here, but I think one of the best governments we had in recent times was the coalition.

Middle of the road Tory policies, tempered by Lib Dem empathy/kindness. e.g. iirc It was the coalition that brought in Pupil Premium payments to schools.

I thought it was short sighted of Lib Dem voters to then turn against them because the Lib Dems hadn't been able to implement all their policies. The Lib Dems were the minority grouping, but at least they had the chance to get some of their policies through.

I don't think their voters turned against them because they couldn't implement all their policies. In my case I turned against them due to their tuition fee U-turn. I was a loyal voter, but after that I swore never to vote for them again and so far I haven't.

Here is the report OP. It might cheer you up.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/oct/24/culture-wars-are-fought-by-tiny-minority-uk-study

Most voters prefer compromise over conflict.

@AcornsVsBcorns I think it was something said on the guilty feminist about repeal the 8th. Lots of women telling their personal stories helped change minds. It really struck me, and I know a lot of people are turned off by the shouty confrontational nature of debate.

I don't want to keep the NHS in its current form. It's a shame it has morphed into such a sacred cow for the UK. There are better models out there...look at Belgium and France for example.

@thegcatsmother

I don't want to keep the NHS in its current form. It's a shame it has morphed into such a sacred cow for the UK. There are better models out there...look at Belgium and France for example.

We could certainly do with some reform - the French system of paying to see a GP and then reclaiming could no doubt cut the number of no-shows, especially if you were charged whether you turned up or not.

There’s no such thing as right and left, as we know it, in mainstream US politics, it’s more right and centre-right! Most democrats would be Tories if they were in the UK!

I’m another right-leaning centrist, but have voted for every major party at some point during my 20-year voting record. I follow the policies I like and believe in, and sometimes that means treating your vote like getting the bus - it’s not going exactly where you want it to but will get you close.

I don't think what you describe is Socialism. Even the Conservative's would say they are in favour of taxing Jeff Benzo's more and reducing poverty. The question is what is the best way to achieve it? I would think of a Socalist as somone wanting to change the system eg through nationalisation so that the percieved inequalities do not arise. Socialism isn't just tinkering with tax and spend policy.

I don't think there much division on economic policy, we've had roughly the same set up since Thatcher. We've seen a little bit of debate about free school meals but otherwise, tax and spend has been off the political agenda for years. There is very little public reaction to a Budget. The nationalist/internationalist is the big divide now.

@Winebottle

I don't think what you describe is Socialism. Even the Conservative's would say they are in favour of taxing Jeff Benzo's more and reducing poverty. The question is what is the best way to achieve it? I would think of a Socalist as somone wanting to change the system eg through nationalisation so that the percieved inequalities do not arise. Socialism isn't just tinkering with tax and spend policy.

I don't think there much division on economic policy, we've had roughly the same set up since Thatcher. We've seen a little bit of debate about free school meals but otherwise, tax and spend has been off the political agenda for years. There is very little public reaction to a Budget. The nationalist/internationalist is the big divide now.

I totally agree that nationalist/internationalist is a big deal now.

What confuses that though is that for internationalist you can to some extent also read globalist.

Properly speaking the two probably don't have to be joined, but often they are, and it leads to people talking at cross purposes. One of the things I noticed around Brexit was that pro-EU people thought of the EU mainly as an internationalist organisation, while anti-EU people thought of it as a globalist organisation. In reality of course it's both.

I give a significant portion of the blame to Twitter. As a medium it is well suited to publishing dogmas, insults, and lies, and unsuited to reasoned discussion and debate.

I also think that especially in the USA the primaries system has caused trouble. Party members have tended to choose the candidates they like not the candidates most likely to win the election, which means policies and candidates that are driven away from the centre and compromise and towards extremes. It also gets mud-slinging going on before the real campaign has even begun.