Left v Right

[BullBailey]

What is going on? Why has it become so extreme and divisive? We seem to have lost our middle ground, it’s either extreme one way or another, you’re too ‘woke’ or too ‘gammon’ or whatever else people are calling each other these days.

The majority of people seem to be leaning slightly more anti-left (note, not right). I say this because I’ve noticed that ‘socialist’ seems to be something which really turns people off. Trump called Biden a socialist and it boosted support for himself. There was a lot of dislike for Corbyn due to him being a socialist. During the last election I was surprised that people who I would very much not have expected to vote for Boris did vote Tory because of the fact that ‘Corbyn is a socialist’ (dirty word apparently!)

I consider myself a bit of a socialist to be honest. To me, modern day socialism is not caring that someone is rich, but not wanting anyone to be in poverty. I couldn’t care less about how much cash Jeff Bezos has and whether that’s right or wrong nor am I demanding that footballers are paid any less, not my business. But I don’t think anyone should be left without a roof over their heads or not knowing where their next meal comes from, and if that means that billionaires and millionaires pay more tax then so be it (or any tax at all Starbucks). And I know people say ‘well they will just move abroad’ then fine, individuals can, but big businesses should have to pay their fair share to trade here and if they don’t, they don’t get to trade.

Despite myself being left, I think I’m only a teeny bit left. I am not extreme at all, but I feel like that’s not really an accepted position today.

Where do you feel you sit? Why do you think it’s getting more extreme? Am I being unreasonable to feel that the majority of people aren’t right, but are put off more by left wing politics? Why can’t we sit more to the middle?

@Hayeahnobut

Well Seb's definitely not a lefty, and seems to have swallowed some right wing trash along the way!

What "right wing trash" have I swallowed?

Everything in my post is verifiably true.

@BullBailey

Another thing *@SebastianTheCrab*, I always find it very amusing when people bang on about all the deaths etc that have occurred under socialism/communism/etc. If we added up all the deaths that have occurred under and because of capitalism we would be here all day. You can not like left wing politics for sure, but all politics have led to poverty, death and disruption. And none of those leaders were good people. Nor was Castro before you chuck him in there for good measure.

Not all politics have led to authoritarian governments where you're scared to talk to a neighbour because you might be reporter and "disappeared". My parents grew up in the USSR and what they went through is unimaginable.

When I hear deluded Westerners wang on about "socialism" on their iPhones while enjoying all the benefits of capitalism it makes me want to to scream. You don't have a clue.

My degree is in politics and 40 years on it still fascinates me. I have never joined a party though, because every (mainstream) party has some policies I agree with and some I do not. At elections I go with 'best fit' with the party's policies but also go by what I think of each party leader (and the individual candidates).

There have often been occasions when I found making a choice very difficult. The last general election is a perfect example. I wasn't attracted to any of the party leaders, so it was a question of 'least worst'.

I think the majority of the British public are similar. Most of us are in the centre somewhere. Traditionally the two major parties know that and try to capture the centre ground rather than seek to appeal to the extremists at either end.

The issue is we have had right wing parties in power for years and they have basically wrecked the UK. And created a hostile environment for anything left of centre. Scotland is more socialist and this is reflected by our satisfaction with how the SNP are being, this worldwide swing to the right is quite frankly terrifying

Your such an extremist op!

I am of course joking but that's what many feel that socialism is. I think it stems from a dog eat dog mentality where people attribute their on success solely on their ability to work hard when their are many other factors such as education, family history, luck and mental health.
People are very quick to judge others on poor life choices and like to feel superior.
I am with you btw op....i think there should be a safety net to prevent people falling through the gaps.
Unfortunately their is a backlash against " woke" thinking and people are still very prejudiced against mh problems judging the sheer amont of threads on here who think that anxiety dosn't exist or is a tiny issue and that people should have a stiff upper lip on all occassions.

Is it socialism or communism Sebastian the crab? They are different i think.

@SebastianTheCrab you have no idea what you’re on about and are so judgemental! I haven’t celebrated communism, Marxism, anarchism in Russia, China or anywhere else! I have also condemned those leaders. I said I liked an ideal where no one is starving or homeless - wow, what an arsehole I am.

So because I don’t share your views you speak to me like shit?

@malificent7

Is it socialism or communism Sebastian the crab? They are different i think.

Socialism is, in Communist theory, the intervening stage between capitalism and communism. It's where most supposedly communist countries are because true communism is basically unachievable.

I'm in my mid 50s so have lived through enough flip-flopping of left and right UK governments. Through most of that the democratic process has been accepted and adhered to.

For me the big and destructive change in politics has been social media. Everyone has a platform now for endless speculation, fact stating (true or not) whipping up activism against democratic results and of course the viscous verbal hate against people who hold a different opinion.

Consequently, I think, of late, the great central left/central right majority speak at the ballot box but have stepped away from the debate and left it to the extremes.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

I mean, how are the two best choices in the US Trump and Biden? Is there no one else?!

Right?! It's mind boggling!

Two really old men. SURELY there is someone else!! I've always thought this

My parents grew up in the USSR and what they went through is unimaginable.

Isn't that the crux of the thread?

I don't doubt for a second that your parents were subject to terrible suffering in that situation. I also don't doubt that some people growing up in far Right regimes also suffer(ed) terribly.

Which is how we come to talking about a more middle ground. The extremes of both sides repulse the majority of people and so differences often come down to more subtle issues closer to the centre. That's why insults and gang mentality is so harmful - it backs people up further and further along the line of whichever way they initially leaned. And there are considerable risks to the extremes of Right and Left that most people would seek to avoid, if they could.

But moderate Right-leaning people get pushed further Right because they are being attacked by the Left. Moderate Left-leaning people get pushed further Left because they are being attacked by the Right.

Only when people stop feeling attacked, can they have the space to review their own beliefs and limit them or change them if they no longer fit.

SebastianTheCrab "My parents grew up in the USSR and what they went through is unimaginable" I'm sorry they suffered, but I think you need to consider that socialism here just doesn't mean what you think it does.

Personally I'm somewhere in between in that I think you can have capitalist ownership for example, but with the most vital services owned by the people (power, transport, education, medicine, food? ) Either wholly owned or with the state/people as majority shareholders.

Capitalism works, but has to be tamed a bit as it will always tend to abandon the least profitable. Schools for example can't be run just for profit, but have to have the primary aim of education. Medicine can't just be the most lucrative operations/treatments.

@SebastianTheCrab that’s the theory behind socialism according to Karl Marx, but don’t you think that ideas have developed in the last 170+ years?

I sit in the right, voted conservatives my whole life.

I feel.like I am in middle as I agree with some Tory and some Labour policies. I actually don't like Lib Dem policies but I also liked coelition. Corbyn was in my view so socialist he was almost communist.

I think the heart of the problem is the UK's electoral system. Until we get rid of FPTP, we will never see new, centrist (or other) political movements emerge and have a shot at actually getting into parliament. I'm from Holland originally. Proportional Representation is the system over there, coalition governments are the absolute norm. In the years that I've been voting, I've seen so many political parties arrive, have their day, fade, resurrect, change or disappear - there's genuine movement on the political stage. That's what the UK needs to end this endless destructive pendulum swinging between Labour and Tory, left and right, extreme and extreme. Too many people are politically homeless.

Hi OP, I wanted to say that I think you sound lovely, and I like the points you make.
I'm definitely a lefty, and something of a hippy to boot! But I really do try to listen to those with differing opinions, and try to understand how those opinions were formed etc. My left-wingness was largely formed by my spirituality in fact, which also teaches me about universal basic love, and kindness. To me that's what it all boils down to - good old-fashioned love & kindness. The world certainly needs it right now, and masses thereof.
I think also that there are so many different types of left & right, and it can mean different things to different people. Like everything, it's complex and nuanced, so people misunderstand eachother a fair bit sometimes.
Anyway, thank you for starting this thread. It's a conversation that really needs having. Take care

@bullbailey

Corbinsky.........

I think there is a lot involved in this now that isn't about left-right in the way people think, and that confuses it a lot.

ThE LP or the DP in the US are neither of them socialist, in the strict sense, and they never have been.

But what is interesting is Corbyn notwithstanding, both have moved significantly right. After Thatcher, Blair explicitly carried on with the same economic model of neoliberalism and globalism, and it was similar with Clinton in the US.

What this means is that three of the pillars of the traditional left were totally abandoned, movement of capital, protection of industry, movement of labour. These are all typically concerns of the working classes everywhere. The way the LP, and the DP, have tried to cover this over has been to adopt a few liberal social policies, identity politics, and state supports for the poor. Make no mistake, these are not necessarily policies of the left. Traditional working class leftism tends to be slightly socially conservative, it doesn't accept the identity politics paradigm and sees it as undermining class politics, and it sees state support for the poor as something which can be used by the rich to allow them to avoid their obligation to pay just wages and offer good jobs.

The conservatives in many cases are still pro-big business neoliberals too, but there has also been some revival of traditional conservatism that appeals to workers for the exact same reason leftism does. Trump for example talks about those three issues of the left I mentioned above on a regular basis, but you can also see it from more thoughtful conservative thinkers.

The people who seem to think they represent the "real" left these days are the pro-globalism middle class university educated whites, but they are liberal progressives in reality. Their natural parties are the LP or DP, now.

Then there are the supposed "extreme" left, who are basically promoting identity politics in an extreme way. ID politics can be very helpful to neoliberalism, but these people are anarchists. They call themselves marxists, and maybe they believe that, but fundamentally marxism is not compatible with identity politics, and they also tend to be race essentialists (again, they have little self-insight and don't get this, and are convinced theirs is the only anti-racism.)

Totally agree with you. I really don't follow politics because it's such a 'one way or another'. But living in the world, I've come across many "camps" and I would say I may be centrist or whatever. Middle of the road or something because I can always see points from both sides and can agree or disagree with points from both sides.

I can't follow a side blindly so I never really have a 'camp' and people like me are mocked and accused of sitting on the fence. So I usually stay away from "debates". I can lurk btw.

Same with social justice and any other cause in the world. It's probably both a blessing and a curse.

Posts are to OP btw.

@pointythings

I think the heart of the problem is the UK's electoral system. Until we get rid of FPTP, we will never see new, centrist (or other) political movements emerge and have a shot at actually getting into parliament. I'm from Holland originally. Proportional Representation is the system over there, coalition governments are the absolute norm. In the years that I've been voting, I've seen so many political parties arrive, have their day, fade, resurrect, change or disappear - there's genuine movement on the political stage. That's what the UK needs to end this endless destructive pendulum swinging between Labour and Tory, left and right, extreme and extreme. Too many people are politically homeless.

I have some sympathy with what you say, and of course the Lib Dems and Green Parties have suffered from FPTP for years, while the SNP benefits hugely.

On the other hand I have always been grateful that FTPT protects us against extreme parties. In 2015 UKIP won over 12% of the vote which under PR would have given them over 80 MPs. In fact they won only one.

Fifthtimelucky speaking from the Dutch experience, letting the extremists have their day in Parliament (especially a diverse, coalition-based parliament) isn't a bad thing. In Holland this has happened several times, with the Centrum Partij (like the BNP), the PVV (Geert Wilders' mob) and now the Forum voor Democratie (Racism and Misogyny for Naice People). Without exception these parties, once in Parliament, have shown themselves up as corrupt and incompetent, prone to infighting and incapable of parliamentary discipline. They have all faded and lost their support as a result. I think it's better to have them out in the open, making fools of themselves.

You might be right. I know embarrassingly little about Dutch politics, but have always worried about the strength of the National Front in France.

Love your description of the Forum voor Democratie, by the way!